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<p>Dave -</p>
<p>This contribution (Adam's "Win Bigly") and Roger's offering of
the John Boehner (apparent?) endorsement of the American Cannabis
Summit helps to remind me of the underlying struggle I am having
with some of the conversation here, and most of what passes for
public conversation at large (in and out of the media). <br>
</p>
<p>Donald is pretty clear, for example, that even when he is
claiming moral high-ground, that his primary (singular?) goal is
to WIN. While I've only read summaries and reviews of Adam's
"Bigly", I sense that his topic is truly (and singularly?) about
being persuasive (aka Winning?), up to and including hypnotism (or
NLP techniques?). <br>
</p>
<p>The American Cannabis Summit video Roger linked suggests that
there is "wealth" to be had by jumping on the Cannabis bandwagon,
comparing it to Tobacco, among other things. The message seems
to equate "wealth" with "leverage over others"... without much
more than a passing nod to the actual enrichment of lives
(individually and collectively). Without debating whether the
widespread legalization and commercialization of Cannabis
implies/supports some "greater good"<br>
</p>
<p>I happen to be reading Rebecca Solnit's "A Paradise Built in
Hell" which is a deep dive into the theme of how people
(sometimes) show their best while suffering great disasters.
Particularly in the area of community spirit and synergistic
cooperation. She anecdotally and analytically reviews disasters
from the 1906 San Francisco earthquake to Katrina, focusing
*mostly* on the positive examples of people stepping up
individually and collectively to show demonstrate/discover their
"best selves". In this, she speaks of the tension between
"Seeking a better life" and "Seeking a better world". It is
suggested that in the face of disaster, the latter is evidently
the most efficient route to the former, and on the whole, the
behaviour of individuals in those contexts suggests that such is
self-evident. She acknowledges that there are plenty of
opportunists who *do not* apprehend that their "best interests"
are supported by cooperation, but instead notice that the
fragility of their context allows them to "exploit" that
fragility, and in fact seem convinced that it is not only an
opportunity but an unction. In their zero (or negative) sum
model, the only way to get what they need is to take it (or hoard
it) from someone else, and *sharing* is deeply suspect at best
and <br>
</p>
<p>ON the topic of "persuasion" vs "ethics", one of Adam's reviewers
reflected: "<span id="reviewTextContainer2150961018"
class="readable"><span id="freeText8126919050853263929" style="">But,
when I was in school, we always discussed ethical
responsibility of the persuader and Adams does not. As long as
Trump was persuasive he was going to win and that’s what
matters." I suppose this is the tension I often
experience... between that which is "efficacioius" in a
(deliberately?) limited context, and that which has a larger
context and is nominally discussed in terms of ethical and
moral frameworks.</span></span></p>
<p><span id="reviewTextContainer2150961018" class="readable"><span
id="freeText8126919050853263929" style="">I was raised in
various cultures of "rugged individualism" which biases me
toward what I perceive to be a *natural/instinctual* state of
"me first". I would claim that *fortunately*, I grew (over
many decades now) into an awareness that while that might be
the default position to retreat to when all available
strategies for a larger collective (family, neighborhood,
tribe, etc.) seem hopeless or negative, that those collectives
are a deeply adaptive aspect of life's evolution. Many
organisms are capable of living in relative isolation from
members of their own group, but do seem to thrive in groups of
their own type but also enhanced by modest diversity (forests,
savannahs, blooms, pods, hives, tribes, schools, flocks,
etc.). <br>
</span></span></p>
<p><span id="reviewTextContainer2150961018" class="readable"><span
id="freeText8126919050853263929" style="">I'm
rambling/rattling on (as usual) here, but I'd like to hear
your (DaveW) perspective on this topic, since you have spoken
fairly directly to the ideals of individualism. <br>
</span></span></p>
<p><span id="reviewTextContainer2150961018" class="readable"><span
id="freeText8126919050853263929" style="">What is the case
(from your perspective) to the complement to rabid
individualism? Does the individualists bogeymen of
collectivism or in the (relative) extreme Globalism have *any*
redeeming qualities, or is the very idea of participating in
larger and larger collectives (hierarchical or heterarchical)
completely antithetical to the survival and enrichment of the
individual?</span></span></p>
<p><span id="reviewTextContainer2150961018" class="readable"><span
id="freeText8126919050853263929" style="">- SteveS<br>
</span></span></p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/10/19 6:40 AM, Prof David West
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:1547127603.2208197.1630871720.62F2F674@webmail.messagingengine.com">
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<div style="font-family:Arial;">Trump is coming up frequently in
this "abduction" thread, especially with regard communication
and rhetoric.A very good, quite enlightening, book about this is
Scott Adams' (yes, the Dilbert cartoonist) <i><u>Win Bigly</u></i>.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">davew<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>On Wed, Jan 9, 2019, at 9:03 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span
class="size" style="font-size:12pt"><span
class="colour" style="color:olive"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Calibri",
sans-serif"><span class="size"
style="font-size:11pt">Steve Smith wrote:</span></span></span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span
class="size" style="font-size:12pt"><span
class="colour" style="color:olive"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Calibri",
sans-serif"><span class="size"
style="font-size:11pt"> </span></span></span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in;"><span
class="colour" style="color:black"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span
class="size" style="font-size:12pt">I sense
frustration in many of us when we try to talk about
our various topics of specialty (as amatuers or
professionals) with our significantly educated (but in
other (sub)disciplines) lay-colleagues. It seems
that in the attempt to be more precise or to make
evident our own lexicons for a particular subject that
we end up tangling our webs in this tower of
Complexity Babel (Babble?) we roam, colliding
occasionally here and there.</span></span></span><br>
</p>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span
class="size" style="font-size:12pt"><span
class="colour" style="color:olive"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Calibri",
sans-serif"><span class="size"
style="font-size:11pt">Right, Steve.</span></span></span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span
class="size" style="font-size:12pt"><span
class="colour" style="color:olive"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Calibri",
sans-serif"><span class="size"
style="font-size:11pt"> </span></span></span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span
class="size" style="font-size:12pt"><span
class="colour" style="color:olive"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Calibri",
sans-serif"><span class="size"
style="font-size:11pt">I wouldn’t have it any
other way. It is one of the few places on
earth where, fwiw, people are struggling with
the problem. Fighting the good fight against
semantic hegemony.</span></span></span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span
class="size" style="font-size:12pt"><span
class="colour" style="color:olive"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Calibri",
sans-serif"><span class="size"
style="font-size:11pt"> </span></span></span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span
class="size" style="font-size:12pt"><span
class="colour" style="color:olive"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Calibri",
sans-serif"><span class="size"
style="font-size:11pt">Nick</span></span></span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span
class="size" style="font-size:12pt"><span
class="colour" style="color:olive"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Calibri",
sans-serif"><span class="size"
style="font-size:11pt"> </span></span></span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span
class="size" style="font-size:12pt"><span
class="colour" style="color:olive"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Calibri",
sans-serif"><span class="size"
style="font-size:11pt">Nicholas S. Thompson</span></span></span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span
class="size" style="font-size:12pt"><span
class="colour" style="color:olive"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Calibri",
sans-serif"><span class="size"
style="font-size:11pt">Emeritus Professor of
Psychology and Biology</span></span></span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span
class="size" style="font-size:12pt"><span
class="colour" style="color:olive"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Calibri",
sans-serif"><span class="size"
style="font-size:11pt">Clark University</span></span></span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span
class="size" style="font-size:12pt"><a
style="text-decoration: underline; color: blue;"
href="http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span class="colour"
style="color:rgb(5, 99, 193)"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Calibri",
sans-serif"><span class="size"
style="font-size:11pt">http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/</span></span></span></a><span
class="colour" style="color:olive"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Calibri",
sans-serif"><span class="size"
style="font-size:11pt"></span></span></span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span
class="size" style="font-size:12pt"><span
class="colour" style="color:olive"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Calibri",
sans-serif"><span class="size"
style="font-size:11pt"> </span></span></span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
<div>
<div
style="border-right-color:currentcolor;border-right-style:none;border-right-width:medium;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-style:none;border-bottom-width:medium;border-left-color:currentcolor;border-left-style:none;border-left-width:medium;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1;border-top-color:rgb(225,
225,
225);border-top-style:solid;border-top-width:1pt;padding-top:3pt;padding-right:0in;padding-bottom:0in;padding-left:0in;">
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Times New Roman",
serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:12pt"><b><span
class="colour" style="color:windowtext"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Calibri",
sans-serif"><span class="size"
style="font-size:11pt">From:</span></span></span></b><span
class="colour" style="color:windowtext"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Calibri",
sans-serif"><span class="size"
style="font-size:11pt"> Friam
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>] <b>On
Behalf Of </b>Steven A Smith<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, January 09, 2019
12:20 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Motives - Was
Abduction</span></span></span></span></span></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span
class="size" style="font-size:12pt"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span
class="size" style="font-size:12pt"><br>
</span></span></span></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;">
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span
class="size" style="font-size:12pt"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Calibri",
sans-serif"><span class="size"
style="font-size:11pt">Nick writes:</span></span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span
class="size" style="font-size:12pt"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Calibri",
sans-serif"><span class="size"
style="font-size:11pt"> </span></span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span
class="size" style="font-size:12pt"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Calibri",
sans-serif"><span class="size"
style="font-size:11pt">< </span></span><span
class="colour" style="color:rgb(0, 51, 0)"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Calibri",
sans-serif"><span class="size"
style="font-size:11pt">Ok, Marcus, I am
standing my ground as a realist here: ():-[)</span></span></span><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Calibri",
sans-serif"><span class="size"
style="font-size:11pt"> ></span></span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span
class="size" style="font-size:12pt"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Calibri",
sans-serif"><span class="size"
style="font-size:11pt"> </span></span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span
class="size" style="font-size:12pt"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Calibri",
sans-serif"><span class="size"
style="font-size:11pt">There you go trying to
claim semantics for terms in a public dictionary
again. (That’s an example of taking ground,
like in my Go example.) Doing so constrains
what can even be <b>said</b>. It puts the
skeptic in the position of having to deconstruct
every single term, and thus be a called terms
like </span></span><a style="text-decoration:
underline; color: blue;"
href="https://www.foxnews.com/politics/kellyanne-conway-embarrasses-cnns-jim-acosta-during-heated-exchange"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Calibri",
sans-serif"><span class="size"
style="font-size:11pt">smartass</span></span></a><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Calibri",
sans-serif"><span class="size"
style="font-size:11pt"> when they force the
terms to be used in other contexts where the
definition doesn’t work. A culture itself is
laden with thousands of de-facto definitions
that steer meaning back to conventional (e.g.
racist and sexist) expectations. To even to
begin to question these expectations requires
having some power base, or safe space, to work
from. </span></span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</blockquote>
<p style="margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in;"><span
class="colour" style="color:black"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span
class="size" style="font-size:12pt">I think this is
the "genius" of Trump's campaign and tenure... he
operates from his own (and often ad-hoc) Lexicon and
that reported 39% stable base of his seems happy to
just rewrite their own dictionary to match his. That
seems to be roughly Kellyanne's and Sarah's only role
(and skill?), helping those who want to keep their
dictionaries up to date with his shifting use of terms
and concepts up to date. </span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in;"><span
class="colour" style="color:black"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span
class="size" style="font-size:12pt">It has been noted
that Trump's presidency has been most significant for
helping us understand how much of our government
operates on norms and a shared vocabulary. He
de(re?)constructs those with virtually every tweet.
While I find it quite disturbing on many levels, I
also find it fascinating. I've never been one to
take the media or politicians very seriously, but he
has demonstrated quite thoroughly why one not only
shouldn't but ultimately *can't*.</span></span></span><br>
</p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;">
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span
class="size" style="font-size:12pt"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Calibri",
sans-serif"><span class="size"
style="font-size:11pt">In this case, you assert
that some discussants are software engineers and
that distinguishes them from your category. A
discussant of that (accused / implied) type says
he is not a member of that set and that it is
not even a credible set. Another discussant
says the activity of such a group is a skill and
if someone lacks it, they could just as well
gain it while having other co-equal skills too.
So there is already reason to doubt the
categorization you are suggesting. </span></span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</blockquote>
<p style="margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in;"><span
class="colour" style="color:black"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span
class="size" style="font-size:12pt">I took Nick's
point to be that the Metaphors that those among us who
spend a significant amount of time writing (or
desiging) computer systems is alien to him, and that
despite making an attempt when he first came here to
develop the skills (and therefore the culture), he
feels he has failed and the lingua franca of computer
(types, geeks, ???) is foreign to him. Here on
FriAM, I feel we speak a very rough Pidgen (not quite
developed enough to be a proper Creole?) admixture of
computer-geek, physics, sociology, psychology,
linguistics, philosophy, mathematics,
hard-science-other-than physics, etc.</span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in;"><span
class="colour" style="color:black"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span
class="size" style="font-size:12pt">I sense
frustration in many of us when we try to talk about
our various topics of specialty (as amatuers or
professionals) with our significantly educated (but in
other (sub)disciplines) lay-colleagues. It seems
that in the attempt to be more precise or to make
evident our own lexicons for a particular subject that
we end up tangling our webs in this tower of
Complexity Babel (Babble?) we roam, colliding
occasionally here and there.</span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in;"><span
class="colour" style="color:black"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span
class="size" style="font-size:12pt">- Sieve</span></span></span><br>
</p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;">
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span
class="size" style="font-size:12pt"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:"Calibri",
sans-serif"><span class="size"
style="font-size:11pt"> </span></span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="colour"
style="color:black"><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span
class="size" style="font-size:12pt"><br>
</span></span></span></p>
<pre style="color: black; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10pt; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;">============================================================
</pre>
<pre style="color: black; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10pt; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;">FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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<pre style="color: black; font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10pt; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;">FRIAM-COMIC <a style="text-decoration: underline; color: blue;" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" moz-do-not-send="true">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> by Dr. Strangelove
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</blockquote>
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by Dr. Strangelove<br>
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FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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FRIAM-COMIC <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> by Dr. Strangelove
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