<!DOCTYPE html>
<html>
<head>
<title></title>
<style type="text/css">p.MsoNormal,p.MsoNoSpacing{margin:0}</style>
</head>
<body><div style="font-family:Arial;">Steve,<br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">First, why <i>Win Bigly</i> recommend. Adams' book is his attempt to understand, to deconstruct and analyze, why he "knew" with complete certainty that Trump would win simply by observing one of his first political rallies. From where did that conviction arise? Why was it so absolute? Adams eventually comes to the conclusion that he was so certain because he non-consciously, at first, recognized a master communicator. Most of the book is a series of anecdotal 'experiments' that fleshed out and confirmed his instinctual reaction at the first rally. Ultimately it is a cautionary tale: if you can't (my own editorial position, if you won't) recognize why — despite all the negatives — he won, you will not be able to defeat him next time. <br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">As to the ethics dimension; you quoted one of Adam's reviewers: <i>"</i><span><span style=""><i>But,
when I was in school, we always discussed ethical
responsibility of the persuader and Adams does not. As long as
Trump was persuasive he was going to win and that’s what
matters."</i> This misconstrues what Adams, who is definitely NOT a Trump fan or even apologist, is saying. A different metaphor: I am standing on a hill watching as a Tanker truck filled with, but leaking, 5,000 gallons of gasoline rushing headlong towards a family minivan and state the obvious, "that truck gonna crush that minivan and immolate every person nearby," and "the truck outweighs the minivan by 5 tons, it has no breaks and the truck driver is slumped over behind the wheel," and "there is nothing the minivan can do about it unless it is a Transformer in mufti." I am not saying that the truck crushing the minivan is "what matters." I am in fact saying that avoiding the disaster is <u>what matters</u> and we might have prevented the disaster if we had recognized and addressed the factors that made it inevitable instead of wailing and gnashing teeth about the driver being a drunk sex offender working for a company that skipped safety inspections ...</span></span><br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><span><span style="">Trump's communication skills ensured that he would win as long as the opposition focused on the cretin instead of the policy.</span></span><br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Second, Individualism. The list recently struggled with the idea of labeling (categorizing) people and my response to your question and observations about individualism will echo some of the labeling conversation.<br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">I will resist being labeled an "individualist" because every characterization I have seen on this list is grounded, in one way or another, on "individual rights." I do not believe that indivdiual's have "rights," even the inalienable ones, that are not derived entirely from "individual responsibility."<br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">I am ultimately and absolutely responsible for, not only myself, but, labeling again, all sentient life. While this seems absurd on its face, it is directly analogous to the Bodhisattva. (A goal, not an achievement!)<br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Corollaries follow: 1) absolute responsibility also means absolute accountability, including if a mistake is made ("do the crime, do the time"); 2) a critical dimension of responsibility is acquiring the kind of 'omniscience' that assures non-attachment; 3) every act (behavior) I exhibit is both informed and intentional; and 4) the necessary assumption that everyone else is an "individualist" of this same stripe.<br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">In the above I am an admitted fundamentalist fanatic. However, the culture I grew up in, both secular and religious, strongly echoes these ideas. Growing up, I was exposed, pretty much constantly, to the "Paradise Built in Hell" kind of individual, group, and social behavior. (Obviously, that was not the only thing to which I was exposed.)<br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">A Geography professor at Macalester College sparked a lifelong interest in Utopian communities. In addition to the physical environment,I was interested in the 'mental' environment of values, principles of social organization, etc.. I have found a lot of other 'echoes' of my concept of individualism in those that managed to survive multiple generations (a rarity).<br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Hope this was on point to what you asked about.<br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">davew<br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>On Thu, Jan 10, 2019, at 9:28 AM, Steven A Smith wrote:<br></div>
<blockquote type="cite"><p>Dave -<br></p><p>This contribution (Adam's "Win Bigly") and Roger's offering of
the John Boehner (apparent?) endorsement of the American Cannabis
Summit helps to remind me of the underlying struggle I am having
with some of the conversation here, and most of what passes for
public conversation at large (in and out of the media). <br></p><p>Donald is pretty clear, for example, that even when he is
claiming moral high-ground, that his primary (singular?) goal is
to WIN. While I've only read summaries and reviews of Adam's
"Bigly", I sense that his topic is truly (and singularly?) about
being persuasive (aka Winning?), up to and including hypnotism (or
NLP techniques?). <br></p><p>The American Cannabis Summit video Roger linked suggests that
there is "wealth" to be had by jumping on the Cannabis bandwagon,
comparing it to Tobacco, among other things. The message seems
to equate "wealth" with "leverage over others"... without much
more than a passing nod to the actual enrichment of lives
(individually and collectively). Without debating whether the
widespread legalization and commercialization of Cannabis
implies/supports some "greater good"<br></p><p>I happen to be reading Rebecca Solnit's "A Paradise Built in
Hell" which is a deep dive into the theme of how people
(sometimes) show their best while suffering great disasters.
Particularly in the area of community spirit and synergistic
cooperation. She anecdotally and analytically reviews disasters
from the 1906 San Francisco earthquake to Katrina, focusing
*mostly* on the positive examples of people stepping up
individually and collectively to show demonstrate/discover their
"best selves". In this, she speaks of the tension between
"Seeking a better life" and "Seeking a better world". It is
suggested that in the face of disaster, the latter is evidently
the most efficient route to the former, and on the whole, the
behaviour of individuals in those contexts suggests that such is
self-evident. She acknowledges that there are plenty of
opportunists who *do not* apprehend that their "best interests"
are supported by cooperation, but instead notice that the
fragility of their context allows them to "exploit" that
fragility, and in fact seem convinced that it is not only an
opportunity but an unction. In their zero (or negative) sum
model, the only way to get what they need is to take it (or hoard
it) from someone else, and *sharing* is deeply suspect at best
and <br></p><p>ON the topic of "persuasion" vs "ethics", one of Adam's reviewers
reflected: "<span><span style="">But,
when I was in school, we always discussed ethical
responsibility of the persuader and Adams does not. As long as
Trump was persuasive he was going to win and that’s what
matters." I suppose this is the tension I often
experience... between that which is "efficacioius" in a
(deliberately?) limited context, and that which has a larger
context and is nominally discussed in terms of ethical and
moral frameworks.</span></span><br></p><p><span><span style="">I was raised in
various cultures of "rugged individualism" which biases me
toward what I perceive to be a *natural/instinctual* state of
"me first". I would claim that *fortunately*, I grew (over
many decades now) into an awareness that while that might be
the default position to retreat to when all available
strategies for a larger collective (family, neighborhood,
tribe, etc.) seem hopeless or negative, that those collectives
are a deeply adaptive aspect of life's evolution. Many
organisms are capable of living in relative isolation from
members of their own group, but do seem to thrive in groups of
their own type but also enhanced by modest diversity (forests,
savannahs, blooms, pods, hives, tribes, schools, flocks,
etc.). </span></span><br></p><p><span><span style="">I'm
rambling/rattling on (as usual) here, but I'd like to hear
your (DaveW) perspective on this topic, since you have spoken
fairly directly to the ideals of individualism. </span></span><br></p><p><span><span style="">What is the case
(from your perspective) to the complement to rabid
individualism? Does the individualists bogeymen of
collectivism or in the (relative) extreme Globalism have *any*
redeeming qualities, or is the very idea of participating in
larger and larger collectives (hierarchical or heterarchical)
completely antithetical to the survival and enrichment of the
individual?</span></span><br></p><p><span><span style="">- SteveS</span></span><br></p><div>On 1/10/19 6:40 AM, Prof David West
wrote:<br></div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:1547127603.2208197.1630871720.62F2F674@webmail.messagingengine.com"><div style="font-family:Arial;">Trump is coming up frequently in
this "abduction" thread, especially with regard communication
and rhetoric.A very good, quite enlightening, book about this is
Scott Adams' (yes, the Dilbert cartoonist) <i><u>Win Bigly</u></i>.<br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">davew<br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>On Wed, Jan 9, 2019, at 9:03 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:<br></div>
<blockquote type="cite"><div><p style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;"><span class="colour" style="color:black"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:12pt"><span class="colour" style="color:olive"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">Steve Smith wrote:</span></span></span></span></span></span><br></p><p style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;"><span class="colour" style="color:black"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:12pt"><span class="colour" style="color:olive"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt"> </span></span></span></span></span></span><br></p><p style="margin-left:0in;margin-right:0in;"><span class="colour" style="color:black"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:12pt">I sense
frustration in many of us when we try to talk about
our various topics of specialty (as amatuers or
professionals) with our significantly educated (but in
other (sub)disciplines) lay-colleagues. It seems
that in the attempt to be more precise or to make
evident our own lexicons for a particular subject that
we end up tangling our webs in this tower of
Complexity Babel (Babble?) we roam, colliding
occasionally here and there.</span></span></span><br></p><div><p style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;"><span class="colour" style="color:black"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:12pt"><span class="colour" style="color:olive"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">Right, Steve.</span></span></span></span></span></span><br></p><p style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;"><span class="colour" style="color:black"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:12pt"><span class="colour" style="color:olive"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt"> </span></span></span></span></span></span><br></p><p style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;"><span class="colour" style="color:black"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:12pt"><span class="colour" style="color:olive"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">I wouldn’t have it any
other way. It is one of the few places on
earth where, fwiw, people are struggling with
the problem. Fighting the good fight against
semantic hegemony.</span></span></span></span></span></span><br></p><p style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;"><span class="colour" style="color:black"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:12pt"><span class="colour" style="color:olive"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt"> </span></span></span></span></span></span><br></p><p style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;"><span class="colour" style="color:black"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:12pt"><span class="colour" style="color:olive"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">Nick</span></span></span></span></span></span><br></p><p style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;"><span class="colour" style="color:black"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:12pt"><span class="colour" style="color:olive"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt"> </span></span></span></span></span></span><br></p><p style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;"><span class="colour" style="color:black"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:12pt"><span class="colour" style="color:olive"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">Nicholas S. Thompson</span></span></span></span></span></span><br></p><p style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;"><span class="colour" style="color:black"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:12pt"><span class="colour" style="color:olive"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">Emeritus Professor of
Psychology and Biology</span></span></span></span></span></span><br></p><p style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;"><span class="colour" style="color:black"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:12pt"><span class="colour" style="color:olive"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">Clark University</span></span></span></span></span></span><br></p><p style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;"><span class="colour" style="color:black"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:12pt"><a style="text-decoration-line:underline;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor;color:blue;" href="http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/"><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(5, 99, 193)"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/</span></span></span></a><span class="colour" style="color:olive"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt"></span></span></span></span></span></span><br></p></div>
<p style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;"><span class="colour" style="color:black"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:12pt"><span class="colour" style="color:olive"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt"> </span></span></span></span></span></span><br></p><div><div style="border-right-color:currentcolor;border-right-style:none;border-right-width:medium;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-style:none;border-bottom-width:medium;border-left-color:currentcolor;border-left-style:none;border-left-width:medium;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1;border-top-color:rgb(225, 225, 225);border-top-style:solid;border-top-width:1pt;padding-top:3pt;padding-right:0in;padding-bottom:0in;padding-left:0in;"><p style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;"><span class="colour" style="color:black"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:12pt"><b><span class="colour" style="color:windowtext"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">From:</span></span></span></b><span class="colour" style="color:windowtext"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt"> Friam
[<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>] <b>On
Behalf Of </b>Steven A Smith<br> <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, January 09, 2019
12:20 PM<br> <b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a><br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Motives - Was
Abduction</span></span></span></span></span></span></p></div>
</div>
<p style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;"><span class="colour" style="color:black"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:12pt"> </span></span></span><br></p><p style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;"><span class="colour" style="color:black"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:12pt"></span></span></span><br></p><blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;"><p style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;"><span class="colour" style="color:black"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:12pt"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">Nick writes:</span></span></span></span></span><br></p><p style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;"><span class="colour" style="color:black"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:12pt"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt"> </span></span></span></span></span><br></p><p style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;"><span class="colour" style="color:black"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:12pt"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">< </span></span><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(0, 51, 0)"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">Ok, Marcus, I am
standing my ground as a realist here: ():-[)</span></span></span><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt"> ></span></span></span></span></span><br></p><p style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;"><span class="colour" style="color:black"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:12pt"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt"> </span></span></span></span></span><br></p><p style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;"><span class="colour" style="color:black"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:12pt"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">There you go trying to
claim semantics for terms in a public dictionary
again. (That’s an example of taking ground,
like in my Go example.) Doing so constrains
what can even be <b>said</b>. It puts the
skeptic in the position of having to deconstruct
every single term, and thus be a called terms
like </span></span><a style="text-decoration-line:underline;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor;color:blue;" href="https://www.foxnews.com/politics/kellyanne-conway-embarrasses-cnns-jim-acosta-during-heated-exchange"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">smartass</span></span></a><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt"> when they force the
terms to be used in other contexts where the
definition doesn’t work. A culture itself is
laden with thousands of de-facto definitions
that steer meaning back to conventional (e.g.
racist and sexist) expectations. To even to
begin to question these expectations requires
having some power base, or safe space, to work
from. </span></span></span></span></span><br></p></blockquote><p style="margin-left:0in;margin-right:0in;"><span class="colour" style="color:black"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:12pt">I think this is
the "genius" of Trump's campaign and tenure... he
operates from his own (and often ad-hoc) Lexicon and
that reported 39% stable base of his seems happy to
just rewrite their own dictionary to match his. That
seems to be roughly Kellyanne's and Sarah's only role
(and skill?), helping those who want to keep their
dictionaries up to date with his shifting use of terms
and concepts up to date. </span></span></span><br></p><p style="margin-left:0in;margin-right:0in;"><span class="colour" style="color:black"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:12pt">It has been noted
that Trump's presidency has been most significant for
helping us understand how much of our government
operates on norms and a shared vocabulary. He
de(re?)constructs those with virtually every tweet.
While I find it quite disturbing on many levels, I
also find it fascinating. I've never been one to
take the media or politicians very seriously, but he
has demonstrated quite thoroughly why one not only
shouldn't but ultimately *can't*.</span></span></span><br></p><blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;"><p style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;"><span class="colour" style="color:black"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:12pt"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">In this case, you assert
that some discussants are software engineers and
that distinguishes them from your category. A
discussant of that (accused / implied) type says
he is not a member of that set and that it is
not even a credible set. Another discussant
says the activity of such a group is a skill and
if someone lacks it, they could just as well
gain it while having other co-equal skills too.
So there is already reason to doubt the
categorization you are suggesting. </span></span></span></span></span><br></p></blockquote><p style="margin-left:0in;margin-right:0in;"><span class="colour" style="color:black"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:12pt">I took Nick's
point to be that the Metaphors that those among us who
spend a significant amount of time writing (or
desiging) computer systems is alien to him, and that
despite making an attempt when he first came here to
develop the skills (and therefore the culture), he
feels he has failed and the lingua franca of computer
(types, geeks, ???) is foreign to him. Here on
FriAM, I feel we speak a very rough Pidgen (not quite
developed enough to be a proper Creole?) admixture of
computer-geek, physics, sociology, psychology,
linguistics, philosophy, mathematics,
hard-science-other-than physics, etc.</span></span></span><br></p><p style="margin-left:0in;margin-right:0in;"><span class="colour" style="color:black"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:12pt">I sense
frustration in many of us when we try to talk about
our various topics of specialty (as amatuers or
professionals) with our significantly educated (but in
other (sub)disciplines) lay-colleagues. It seems
that in the attempt to be more precise or to make
evident our own lexicons for a particular subject that
we end up tangling our webs in this tower of
Complexity Babel (Babble?) we roam, colliding
occasionally here and there.</span></span></span><br></p><p style="margin-left:0in;margin-right:0in;"><span class="colour" style="color:black"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:12pt">- Sieve</span></span></span><br></p><blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;"><p style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;"><span class="colour" style="color:black"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:12pt"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt"> </span></span></span></span></span><br></p><p style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;"><span class="colour" style="color:black"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Times New Roman", serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:12pt"></span></span></span><br></p><pre style="color:black;font-family:"Courier New";font-size:10pt;margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;">============================================================
<br></pre><pre style="color:black;font-family:"Courier New";font-size:10pt;margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;">FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
<br></pre><pre style="color:black;font-family:"Courier New";font-size:10pt;margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;">Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
<br></pre><pre style="color:black;font-family:"Courier New";font-size:10pt;margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;">to unsubscribe <a style="text-decoration-line:underline;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor;color:blue;" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a>
<br></pre><pre style="color:black;font-family:"Courier New";font-size:10pt;margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;">archives back to 2003: <a style="text-decoration-line:underline;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor;color:blue;" href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a>
<br></pre><pre style="color:black;font-family:"Courier New";font-size:10pt;margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;">FRIAM-COMIC <a style="text-decoration-line:underline;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor;color:blue;" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> by Dr. Strangelove
<br></pre></blockquote></div>
<div>============================================================<br></div>
<div>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br></div>
<div>Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College<br></div>
<div>to unsubscribe <a style="text-decoration-line:underline;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor;color:blue;" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br></div>
<div>archives back to 2003: <a style="text-decoration-line:underline;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor;color:blue;" href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br></div>
<div>FRIAM-COMIC <a style="text-decoration-line:underline;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor;color:blue;" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> by Dr. Strangelove<br></div>
</blockquote><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div>
<pre>============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a>
archives back to 2003: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a>
FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> by Dr. Strangelove
<br></pre></blockquote><div>============================================================<br></div>
<div>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br></div>
<div>Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College<br></div>
<div>to unsubscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br></div>
<div>archives back to 2003: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br></div>
<div>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> by Dr. Strangelove<br></div>
</blockquote><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div>
</body>
</html>