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<p class="MsoPlainText">Thanks for the elaboration, Dave.
Sounds like a great program. Have you ever written it up AS a
program proposal and broadcast it to universities? That's
how I got my job at Clark, surprisingly enough. The program
description was published as a letter in <i>The American
Psychologist </i>although the program itself was never
formally created. If you read it, please bear in mind that it
was written half a century ago. Some of the language is a bit
… funny. Also not the brief letter published just ahead of it
on… yes … psexism in sychology. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">But could your graduates write a
sonnet? </p>
</div>
</blockquote>
or butcher a hog or plan an invasion?<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:01e601d4d43f$c67065b0$53513110$@earthlink.net">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">N<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Nicholas S. Thompson<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Emeritus Professor of Psychology and
Biology<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Clark University<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/">http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Friam [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>] On Behalf Of
Prof David West<br>
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2019 9:24 AM<br>
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] are we how we behave?</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Ok Steve,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">First some elaboration:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">In 25 BC, Vitruvius (considered the
founder of the discipline of architecture) stated:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">"The ideal architect should be a man of
letters, a skillful draftsman, a mathematician, familiar with
historical studies, a diligent student of philosophy,
acquainted with music; not ignorant of medicine, learned in
the responses of jurisconsults, familiar with astronomy, and
astronomical calculations."<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">In 2004(5?) Christopher Alexander
(architect) spoke to an audience of 1000 or so software
developers; noting that professional architects are
responsible for 10 percent of the built environment while
software developers would be responsible for, essentially,
100% of the environment within which we all live, work, and
play.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Is it unreasonable to expect software
developers to have an equivalent, in terms of modern
knowledge, educational foundation?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">The term "modern polymath" has gained
significant traction in the business and the design press.
Business attention comes from an awareness that in order to
thrive, to innovate, in a highly dynamic and complex context,
decentralization of analysis and decision making is essential.
But, this requires a qualitatively different kind of employee
— one with both breadth and depth of knowledge. Moreover, both
in business and design, work is done by teams —
multi-disciplinary teams; teams that must transcend individual
silos of expertise. A modern polymath is someone with
significant, integrated, breadth of understanding with
multiple (albeit to different degrees) instances of depth. The
visual metaphor is a "broken comb."<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Much more could be offered in terms of
identifying and arguing for the need of broadly educated
individuals and extension of that need into almost any
discipline.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Now the jumping up and down with a bit
of YELLING.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">AS THEY HAVE EVOLVED, CONTEMPORARY
UNIVERSITIES CANNOT GRADUATE INDIVIDUALS THAT EVEN APPROXIMATE
MODERN POLYMATHS.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">I could list numerous reasons for this
assertion, but will, instead, offer a single illustration.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">The program that I delivered at
Highlands (co-taught with Pam Rostal) was designed to graduate
software developers who were modern polymaths. We devised a
set of 321 "competencies" and students had to demonstrate
their mastery of each at up to five different levels ranging
from "rote application under supervision" to "making a
contribution to understanding." Competencies ranged in subject
matter from Anthropology to Zooloqy. We also utilized 'just in
time learning' and tinversion of the teaching approach:
graduate level first, fundamentals later.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">It worked. The first year we had half
the students (Freshmen to Graduate level) presenting refereed
papers at two conferences with the highest rejection rate of
all conferences at that time. All of our students were offered
mid-level positions in industry - very notably at a national,
not just local level) in software development — not entry
level.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">[An article for the Cutter Journal on
this subject should appear in the next few weeks. I will share
with anyone interested when it is published.]<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">The point of this reminiscence: As an
experiment we put the knowledge base expected of our students
in the form of traditional 3-4 credit courses. The number of
courses and credits required was the equivalent of 4
undergraduate degrees and 3 Masters Degree programs.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Our program could not be replicated at
any other university as it violated EVERY precept of
university teaching and organization.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">davew<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">On Tue, Mar 5, 2019, at 9:29 PM, Steven
A Smith wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> Nick -<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> I think you described the
difference between vocational training and <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> an education. Hazing seems more
relevant to fraternal organizations <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> and perhaps working as a GRA or
TA?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> My university motto was "to become
more educated is to become more <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> human" and my Philosophy 101
professor made a very strong point of <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> that to the class. I don't know if
it effected anyone else like it did me.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> I had been angling toward
sharpening my head to the finest point <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> possible on the natural sciences
(physics in particular), mathematics <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> and some of that new-fangled
computer-engineering stuff. His <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> admonition, along with a number of
professors who made their subjects <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> much more interesting (and
relevant) than I had ever encountered in <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> public education to that point
caused me to take a very broad <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> selection of liberal arts courses
which I feel almost exclusively <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> enrichened my life (personal and
professional) to this day.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> I chose to study (a minimum of)
Latin (as well as Greek and Esperanto) <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> to add to my street/border Spanish
and I think I would have been <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> served (yet more) well by having
more language education expected of me.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> Dentists absolutely need to
understand Calculus (and Tartar) as do <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> dental hygenists (bad pun), and
doctors of course should understand <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> the chemistry of organisms (more
bad yet).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> Dave -<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> I for one would be interested in
some elaboration on your point(s), or <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> at least to watch you jump up and
down?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> - Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> > Nick, you pose an interesting
question. From one perspective, that of an idealist who
believes in the old version of a liberal arts education and
the modern notion of a "modern polymath" I would answer yes to
your question. As a veteran of academia i would emphatically
jump up and down and say no - it is nonsense. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> ><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> > I could elaborate on my
answer, should anyone be interested.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> ><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> > davew<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> ><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> ><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> > On Tue, Mar 5, 2019, at 2:57
PM, Nick Thompson wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >> Did I really REALLY have
to learn Latin to be an Educated Man. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >> Read in two languages to
get a PHD? Do you really have to get an A in organic<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >> chemistry to be a good
doctor? In Calculus to be a dentist? <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >> How do we tell the
difference between hazing and education? <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >> n<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >> Nicholas S. Thompson<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >> Emeritus Professor of
Psychology and Biology Clark University <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >> <a
href="http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >> -----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >> From: Friam [<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com</span></a>]
On Behalf Of u?l? ?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >> Sent: Tuesday, March 05,
2019 2:40 PM<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >> To: FriAM <<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">friam@redfish.com</span></a>><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] are
we how we behave?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >> I can't help but tie these
maunderings to the modern epithets of <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >> "snowflake" and
"privilege" (shared by opposite but similar <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >> ideologues). I have to
wonder what it means to "learn" something. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >> The question of whether a
robot will take one's job cuts nicely to <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >> the chase, I think. How
much of what any of us do/know is uniquely <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >> (or<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >> best) doable by a general
intelligence (if such exists) versus <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >> specific intelligence?
While I'm slightly fluent in a handful of <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >> programming languages, I
cannot (anymore) just sit down and write a <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >> program in any one of
them. I was pretty embarrassed at a recent <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >> interview where they asked
me to code my solution to their <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >> interview question on the
whiteboard. After I was done I noticed <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >> sugar from 3 different
languages in the code I "wrote" ... all mixed together for
convenience.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >> They said they didn't
mind. But who knows? Which is better? <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >> Being able to coherently
code in one language, with nearly <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >> compilable code off the
bat? Or the [dis]ability of changing <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >> languages on a regular
basis in order to express a relatively <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >> portable algorithm? Which
one would be easier for a robot? I honestly have no idea.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >> But the idea that the
arbitrary persnickety sugar I learned <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >> yesterday<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >> *should* be useful today
seems like a bit of a snowflake/privileged <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >> way to think (even
ignoring the "problem of induction" we often <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >> talk about on this list).
Is what it means to "learn" something <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >> fundamentally different
from one era to the next? Do the practical <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >> elements of "learning"
evolve over time? Does it really ... <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >> really? ... help to know
how a motor works in order to drive a car? <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >> ... to reliably drive a
car so that one's future is more <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >> predictable? ... to
reduce the total cost of ownership of one's <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >> car? Or is there a
logical layer of abstraction below which the Eloi really don't
need to go?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >> On 3/5/19 11:04 AM, Steven
A Smith wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >>> Interesting to see the
"new bar" set so low as age 30. Reminds me <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >>> of my own youth when
the "Hippie generation" was saying "don't <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >>> trust anyone over
30!". Later I got to know a lot of folks from the "Beat"<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >>> generation who were
probably in their 30's by that time and rather <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >>> put out that they
couldn't keep their "hip" going amongst the new youth culture.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >>><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >>> ...<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >>> My mules are named
Fortran/Prolog/APL/C/PERL and VMS/BSD/Solaris/NeXT <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >>> and IBM/CDC/CRAY/DEC
and GL/OpenGL/VRPN/VRML. I barely know the <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >>> names of the new<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >>>
tractors/combines/cropdusters/satellite-imaging/laser-leveling/???<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >>> technology.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >>><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >>> Always to be counted
on for nostalgic maunderings,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >> --<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >> <span
style="font-family:"Segoe UI Symbol",sans-serif">☣</span>
uǝlƃ<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >>
============================================================<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >> FRIAM Applied Complexity
Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >> cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >> <a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >> archives back to 2003: <a
href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >> FRIAM-COMIC <a
href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</span></a>
by Dr. Strangelove<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >>
============================================================<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >> FRIAM Applied Complexity
Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >> cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >> <a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> >> archives back to 2003: <a
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a>
archives back to 2003: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a>
FRIAM-COMIC <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> by Dr. Strangelove
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