<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p>Glen -</p>
<p>Another interesting question to speculate around (as usual)!</p>
<p>On the face of it, the question of whether there are brain
changes in response to therapy or pharmaceuticals, would seem to
be very trite or another form of the mind/body (mind/brain)
question. My trite answer to the implied trite question would be
a simple "yes".</p>
<p>I think you are asking something more sophisticated though? If
we believe that there are *some* kinds of changes to the brain
(such as Dave's examples below) when we "change our minds" or "see
things differently" then in fact there is a "plastic" change which
persists past the direct effect of the drugs or the therapy
session. <br>
</p>
<p>I think you are asking *what* the specific brain changes are that
might be effected through A) Therapy and B) Antidepressants/???
and C) a) supported/enhanced/accelerated by b). <br>
</p>
<p>I have no personal experience with B (excepting of course, the
self-medication with alcohol, fats, carbs and mood-alterations
that come with their timely application). The experiences I have
with A) ranging from a good bartender to a good life-partner to a
good friend to a licensed therapist, suggest that significant
changes *can* be made. <br>
</p>
<p>Those made with a "casual" conversational partner under the
influence of alcohol tend to be a lot more elastic. I've never
worked as a bartender but can imagine how much mood-swinging,
life-change-claiming experiences they observe in their
customers. I've observed angry as well as sloppy drunks who seem
to resolve their angst while "under the influence" only to return
to roughly the same position with their angst the next day/weekend
and go through the same alcohol/rant/rave induced denoument over
(and over and over). From what I've observed (less frequently)
pot smokers, binge-eaters, binge-shoppers and gamblers go through
a similar cycle. <br>
</p>
<p>if/since the goal is often to effect more plastic change, then it
is natural to seek mechanisms that support that. I personally
have tried some therapy and had mixed results. I wasn't
specifically seeking relief from depression as such, but
depression was surely part of the complex of symptoms I was
feeling. I was seeking to make some "changes in perspective"
which I hoped would lower the cognitive/emotional burden I was
feeling from navigating my life as it was structured. I was
stuck in not wanting to change the structure of my life, finding
aspects of it hard/tiring/confronting to endure, and wanting to
"adjust my attitude" to fit my circumstances "more better". Of
course, the net result included recognizing that *some* of the
aspects of my life *would change* as I changed my attitude toward
them. This included primary and secondary relationships, and
work/career as well as my relationship with the larger social
sphere as I apprehend it. <br>
</p>
<p>Both therapists asked me when I interviewed them if I was
seeking anti-depressant medication. I didn't know if that was A)
them observing/diagnosing me as "depressed" on first meeting; B)
vetting me for someone who also needed a consult with a licensed
psychiatrist who could make such prescriptions; C) doing triage to
see if my self-proclaimed reasons (which didn't include
acknowledging depression) for seeking therapy were misleading (in
that specific way); D) vetting me for someone who was seeking a
"quick fix". <br>
</p>
<p>The second therapist DID offer and provide me with some EMDR
treatment (eye movement desensitization and reprocessing). I was
skeptical, but approached it as a mild form of hypnosis. She was
relatively new to the method and I was also perhaps "indulging
her" in getting some practice while I got to experiment with
whether such things *could* have an effect. My (very subjective)
answer was that it could absolutely be effective. When it
worked, I swear I felt an immediate (and mostly plastic) shift in
my larger mental state. It seemed to work as advertised in
breaking some kinds of persistent beliefs I held about myself or
the world. One important caveat that is fundamental to the
psychotheraputic model... it only worked when I really wanted it
to. The trick (not unlike some of my recent rants here about
"asking the right question") seemed to be to frame the
problem/question/belief at hand properly before we could actually
effectively make any headway. We often spent an entire session
trying to agree on what the underlying "belief" I wanted/need to
change *was* and then do the actual EMDR (including some pre and
post analysis) in a subsequent session. My therapist seemed a
little frustrated at how much time/energy we expended narrowing it
all down to "the right question" and we agreed this was at least
*partly* a consequence of me living so strongly (belligerently?)
in my head. I think she also *learned* from my example that
"getting the question right" was key. It felt to me that the
few successful EMDR sessions we had (small handful) DID help to
unkink some of my deeper beliefs and I DID obtain some immediate
and persistent relief in my life from it. It may also be the case
that since I wasn't seeking relief from any specific identifiable
events or circumstances, that EMDR wasn't the perfect fit. <br>
</p>
<p>I brought up EMDR because I felt that it's mechanism (which is a
little under-understood I think) may not be that dissimilar to
conventional anti-depressant or complementarily? microdosing of
psi drugs in that it helped me get *past* the built-in (ego?)
defenses that were holding various beliefs in a sacred place.
From what I hear with conventional anti-depressants, they can
relieve the psychic anxiety or increase the energy to a level that
allows the individual to proceed to change habits which they might
otherwise be unable to due to under/overproduction of
neurochemistry. I would suggest that the anti-depressant
mechanisms change the *dynamics* of the brain which *allows* the
function to shift enough that the *structure* can become changed
through some amount of repetition (shift in habits of
being/thinking) which would reflect the "change to the brain" you
are suggesting. I assume the same thing (through different
mechanisms?) applies to psi microdosing. Instead of adjusting
the *gross* or *familiar* neurochemistry, they tweak more subtle
(or lesser known?) mechanisms which allow for/induce behavioral
(thought as well as activity) changes in a way that can lead to
the brain-function/structure changes you are suggesting.</p>
<p>On reflection, the EMDR experience I had *felt* like something
shifted physically/biochemically very abruptly and plasticly. I
don't remember ever feeling like the beliefs I had "changed" were
at risk of reverting. In that way it felt like I'd achieved a <i>denoument</i>
of some kind which I suppose doesn't have to represent significant
physical changes? <br>
</p>
<p>Mumble,</p>
<p> - Steve<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/8/19 9:36 AM, Prof David West
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:4d4de3ce-dd03-4582-8369-1551ab04f803@www.fastmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<title></title>
<style type="text/css">#fastmail-quoted p.fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal,#fastmail-quoted li.fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal,#fastmail-quoted div.fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal{margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman", serif;}
#fastmail-quoted a:link,#fastmail-quoted span.fastmail-quoted-MsoHyperlink{color:blue;text-decoration-line:underline;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor;}
#fastmail-quoted a:visited,#fastmail-quoted span.fastmail-quoted-MsoHyperlinkFollowed{color:purple;text-decoration-line:underline;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor;}
#fastmail-quoted span.fastmail-quoted-EmailStyle17{font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif;color:rgb(31, 73, 125);}
#fastmail-quoted span.fastmail-quoted-EmailStyle18{font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif;color:rgb(153, 51, 102);}
#fastmail-quoted .fastmail-quoted-MsoChpDefault{font-size:10pt;}
#fastmail-quoted div.fastmail-quoted-WordSection1{}
#fastmail-quoted ol{margin-bottom:0in;}
#fastmail-quoted ul{margin-bottom:0in;}
p.MsoNormal,p.MsoNoSpacing{margin:0}</style>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Not necessarily "a crock."<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Pretend, anthropomorphize a bit,
that the brain is an entity with at least three observable
behaviors: 1) establishing and/or modifying physical 'circuits'
in response to stimuli of category A; 2) 'activating' specific
subsets of the overall circuitry in response to stimuli of
category B; and 3) 'emitting' electromagnetic wave forms in
response to stimuli of category C.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Ignore for a moment the fact that
all three categories of stimuli and all three behavioral
responses probably occur simultaneously in most cases. [Maybe
not the rewiring, as that seems to have multiple unique
constraints.]<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">We then collect a lot of data of
the sort, stimulus X(n) evoked behavior Y, with Behavior Y being
an instance of 'rewiring' (p), 'local activation' (q), or
'emission' (r).<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">If we observe that stimulus X(1)
and stimulus X(6) evoke an instance of (p) we might, being a bit
careless with our language, state that the two different stimuli
"change the brain in the same way." Being a bit more careful, we
might say only that Stimuli X(1) and X(6) belong in the same
category A, B, or C.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Given this framework, I would
venture a guess that Therapy and Drugs, as stimuli, would not
evoke the same behavior. I would expect Therapy to result in
behaviors of the 'rewiring' type while Drugs evoke 'activation'
type.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">This would allow me to address
Nick's concern, "odd dualism by which some brain changes are
REALLY brain changes and some are not" by asserting that there
is no 'real/unreal' dualism, but there is a useful category
distinction to be made.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">davew<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">On Thu, Mar 7, 2019, at 9:41 PM,
Nick Thompson wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" id="fastmail-quoted">
<div class="fastmail-quoted-WordSection1">
<p class="fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(153, 51, 102)" class="colour"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"
class="font"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="size">Sorry.
See correction, below. The point is, if the therapist
convinces the patient, by rational argument, to do the
Right Thing, whatever the right thing would be, we
don’t tend to think of this as a brain change. But of
course it is. So, what is this odd dualism by which
some brain changes are REALLY brain changes, and some
are not? Thus, we see again, as we must always see,
(};-)] that brain state materialism is a crock. </span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p class="fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(153, 51, 102)" class="colour"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"
class="font"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="size"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p class="fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(153, 51, 102)" class="colour"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"
class="font"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="size">N</span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p class="fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(153, 51, 102)" class="colour"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"
class="font"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="size"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p class="fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(153, 51, 102)" class="colour"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"
class="font"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="size"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
<div>
<p class="fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(153, 51, 102)" class="colour"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"
class="font"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="size">Nicholas
S. Thompson</span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p class="fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(153, 51, 102)" class="colour"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"
class="font"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="size">Emeritus
Professor of Psychology and Biology</span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p class="fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(153, 51, 102)" class="colour"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"
class="font"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="size">Clark
University</span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p class="fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(153, 51, 102)" class="colour"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"
class="font"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="size"><a
href="http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:rgb(5,
99, 193)" class="colour">http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/</span></a></span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<p class="fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(153, 51, 102)" class="colour"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"
class="font"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="size"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
<div>
<div
style="border-right-color:currentcolor;border-right-style:none;border-right-width:medium;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-style:none;border-bottom-width:medium;border-left-color:currentcolor;border-left-style:none;border-left-width:medium;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1;border-top-color:rgb(225,
225,
225);border-top-style:solid;border-top-width:1pt;padding-top:3pt;padding-right:0in;padding-bottom:0in;padding-left:0in;">
<p class="fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"
class="font"><span style="font-size:11pt"
class="size">From:</span></span></b><span
style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"
class="font"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="size">
Nick Thompson [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:nickthompson@earthlink.net">mailto:nickthompson@earthlink.net</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, March 07, 2019 8:30 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
Coffee Group' <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"><friam@redfish.com></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [FRIAM] is this true?</span></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
<p class="fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125)" class="colour"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"
class="font"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="size">Of
course therapy alters the brain. How on earth else
could it work? So, the question wouldn’t come up if
people didn’t suppose that some brain alterations <s>and</s>
</span></span></span><b><i><span style="color:rgb(153,
51, 102)" class="colour"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"
class="font"><span style="font-size:11pt"
class="size">[NST==>are<==nst] </span></span></span></i></b><span
style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125)" class="colour"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"
class="font"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="size">not
REALLY brain alterations. I don’t know how those
people make that distinction.</span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p class="fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125)" class="colour"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"
class="font"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="size"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p class="fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125)" class="colour"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"
class="font"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="size">Nick</span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p class="fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125)" class="colour"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"
class="font"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="size"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p class="fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125)" class="colour"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"
class="font"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="size">Nicholas
S. Thompson</span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p class="fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125)" class="colour"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"
class="font"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="size">Emeritus
Professor of Psychology and Biology</span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p class="fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125)" class="colour"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"
class="font"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="size">Clark
University</span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p class="fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125)" class="colour"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"
class="font"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="size"><a
href="http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:rgb(5, 99,
193)" class="colour">http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/</span></a></span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p class="fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal"><span
style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125)" class="colour"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"
class="font"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="size"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p class="fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"
class="font"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="size">From:</span></span></b><span
style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"
class="font"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="size">
Friam [<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Frank Wimberly<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, March 07, 2019 6:20 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee
Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] is this true?</span></span></p>
<p class="fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal">Therapy and drugs can
certainly change a life. I had a friend who worked for
a research organization at the University of
Pittsburgh. He had a Ph.D. in psychology. At the time
I worked in the Robotics Institute at Carnegie Mellon.
He became interested in my work and wondered if there
were opportunities for him there. He investigated and
was offered a position. As a faculty member your job
was to find a problem solve it and publish the results
and then seek funding for further work but usually you
had the freedom to pursue whatever problem you wanted to
within reason. He was not used to this lack of
structure and he became unhappy. One night he called me
and was in desperate straits. I did what it could to
encourage him. He entered therapy with a
psychiatrist. Over the months he became more
productive. After making some contributions in
scheduling and planning software as I recall, he went to
work for a startup and did some excellent work
developing visualization tools. He was head of a group
of a dozen or more developers and scientists. The group
became a separate business. After a couple of years it
was bought by a fortune 50 company and he was made head
of the division it became.<br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal">I don't know whether
or how his brain changes but his life certainly did.<br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal">Frank<br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal">On Thu, Mar 7, 2019
at 4:58 PM Prof David West <<a
href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm"
moz-do-not-send="true">profwest@fastmail.fm</a>>
wrote:<br>
</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border-top-color:currentcolor;border-top-style:none;border-top-width:medium;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-right-style:none;border-right-width:medium;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-style:none;border-bottom-width:medium;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1;border-left-color:rgb(204,
204,
204);border-left-style:solid;border-left-width:1pt;padding-top:0in;padding-right:0in;padding-bottom:0in;padding-left:6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5pt;">
<div>
<div>
<p class="fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif"
class="font">ketamine would not be the first drug
that was utilized to augment therapy. MDA, MDMA,
even LSD were all studied as ways to enhance,
optimize, therapy.</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif"
class="font"> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif"
class="font">An therapy, some kinds of it anyway,
have also been demonstrated to produce very mild
altered states of consciousness — somewhat less
than hypnosis, somewhat greater than attending an
old fashioned Catholic Mass.</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif"
class="font"> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif"
class="font">davew</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif"
class="font"> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif"
class="font"> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif"
class="font">On Thu, Mar 7, 2019, at 3:25 PM, glen
</span><span style="font-family:"Cambria
Math", serif" class="font">∅</span><span
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif"
class="font"> wrote:</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<blockquote
id="fastmail-quoted-gmail-m_362131261802491436fastmail-quoted"
style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;">
<div>
<p class="fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal">From <a
href="https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/07/opinion/ketamine-depression.html"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/07/opinion/ketamine-depression.html</a><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal">> After all,
therapy and prescription drugs like
antidepressants change the brain in surprisingly
similar ways.<br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal">Does therapy
exhibit changes in the brain similar to drugs
(like antidepressants or not)? I wish the author
had provided a citation or 2.<br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal">============================================================<br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal">FRIAM Applied
Complexity Group listserv<br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal">Meets Fridays
9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College<br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal">to unsubscribe
<a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal">archives back
to 2003: <a
href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal">FRIAM-COMIC <a
href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a>
by Dr. Strangelove<br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal"><b>Attachments:</b><br>
</p>
</div>
<ul type="disc">
<li style="" class="fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal">pEpkey.asc<br>
</li>
</ul>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="fastmail-quoted-MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif"
class="font"> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">============================================================<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">FRIAM Applied Complexity
Group listserv<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at
cafe at St. John's College<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">to unsubscribe <a
href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">archives back to 2003: <a
href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">FRIAM-COMIC <a
href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a>
by Dr. Strangelove<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">--<br>
</div>
<div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Frank Wimberly<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">140 Calle Ojo Feliz<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Santa Fe, NM 87505<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">505 670-9918<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>============================================================<br>
</div>
<div>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
</div>
<div>Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College<br>
</div>
<div>to unsubscribe
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>
</div>
<div>archives back to 2003: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br>
</div>
<div>FRIAM-COMIC <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> by Dr.
Strangelove<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a>
archives back to 2003: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a>
FRIAM-COMIC <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> by Dr. Strangelove
</pre>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>