<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div>Nick, et al,</div><div>Reinforcing Steve's message: This conversation is hard because, in humans, doing humaney things, it is the case, factually, that most changes in behavior that we are wont to discusses entail changes in the brain. However, as a good student of animal behavior, you (Nick) are of course aware that behavioral changes can result from bodily changes in non-brain areas. This is especially obvious when we generate behavioral change in organisms without brains at all :- P Even if we stick with humans, t<span style="display:inline!important;float:none;background-color:transparent;color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13.33px;font-size-adjust:none;font-stretch:100%;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:19.99px;text-align:left;text-decoration:none;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">he recent explosion of research on the importance of gut bacteria in mental health speaks to this. I</span>n many of the human cases we are wont to discuss there are "interactions" between "body" and "brain" changes (ugh, a false dualism if ever there was one), for example, we might discuss the numerous changes in the brain that occur after removal of testes or ovaries, due to the changes in circulating hormones and hormone responsivity. Or take the leg injury Steve mentions: To some extent, I limp because my leg is injured. However, if you track my limp from the moment of the break forward, you will find that the particular limp I display a month out is, in a large part, the result of some optimization problem for walking-with-such-and-such-injuries that certainly involves adjustments somewhere in my brain. (Not all animals do this mind you, but most people do. I've seen no detectable change in the limps of injured lizards, for example, after very long stretches of time.) </div><div><br></div><div>Back to the very beginning of this thread... there has been research for a long time about therapy and neurochemistry. <span style="font:400 13.33px/19.99px Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;text-align:left;color:rgb(34,34,34);text-transform:none;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;text-decoration:none;word-spacing:0px;display:inline;white-space:normal;font-size-adjust:none;font-stretch:100%;float:none;background-color:transparent">Let's examine 3 research findings: 1)</span> Depressed people (as a group) have lower dopamine, on average, than non-depressed people. 2) Depressed people (as a group) who are given dopamine are, on average, less depressed later. 3) Depressed people (as a group) who undergo behaviorist therapy to replace the behaviors-patterns-that-are-depression with other behavior patterns (with no mind-diving involved) are later found (on average) to have higher dopamine than when they started the therapy. Ditto those that are successful (as a group) with mind-oriented therapeutic approaches. </div><div><br></div><div>So, do drugs cause the same changes in the brain as therapy? I'm not sure. However, successful therapy seems to causes the same changes in the brain that the drugs are intended to produce. Note the implications of this for causal attributions regarding neurotransmitter levels and mental illness. </div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div>Eric</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><div class="gmail_signature" dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><br clear="all">-----------<br>Eric P. Charles, Ph.D.<br>Personnel Psychologist<br></div><div>Drug Enforcement Administration</div><div dir="ltr"><a href="mailto:echarles@american.edu" target="_blank"></a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Sat, Mar 9, 2019 at 12:33 PM Steven A Smith <<a href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com">sasmyth@swcp.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p>Nick - <br>
</p>
<p>A) Autonomic bodily function. Biomechanical body changes. We
can walk with a limp (or choose not to walk) because our leg is
damaged without any change to the brain. Perhaps our brain WILL
change in response to our constant limping (or not leaving our
chair/bed), but it isn't a brain change that changes our
behaviour. IN the small, the signals to the brain that something
is wrong might not even get there, or be scrambled,
trusting/deferring to the autonomic system to "do the right thing"
and at best "keep the brain informed of changes".<br>
</p>
<p>B) Bio/Neurochemistry. Changes in blood glucose, hormones,
introduced mood-altering substances. Misbehaving glands (thyroid,
pancreas, etc.) can trigger all kinds of mood/behaviour changes.
Glen reminds us that our microbiome can change our
behaviour/mind/mood as well... people have had huge shifts in
mood/behaviour after overzealous use of antibiotics or a failure
of the GI tract. You can call these brain (chemistry) changes, but
the change in mind/mood/behaviour is more the way the brain
function changes in response to the changed chemical milieu than
changes *to* the brain.<br>
</p>
<p>B) <i>P</i><i>lastic</i> vs <i>elastic</i> changes. A shot of
coffee or juice (or mood-altering substance of choice) can shift
the *brain metabolism* in ways that radically and quickly change
behavior. As the neurochemistry returns to "normal" (alcohol
leaves the system (sober up) and we rehydrate (recover from
hangover)), the enduring changes to the brain are minimal (thought
they can endure/accrue over time). Similarly a therapy session,
some deep prayer, or a new years resolution can lead us to a
"change of heart/mind" but it is unlikely to LAST unless there are
attendant changes in habits and relationships. It is those
changes in behaviour, related to the "habits and relationships"
that I contend *change the brain* and that a great deal of the
long-lasting change doesn't even happen IN the brain, though it
may be that the brain's interaction with/response to changes in
biochemistry (and biomechanics?) lead to changes in brain (and
mind) function. Put the weight back on, crash your gut bacteria,
go off your meds, and by golly you may end up right back where you
were before you made those bodily/environmental changes in the
first place. If your *brain changed* when you made those other
changes in habit/behaviour, why did it change back so precisely?
Had it ever really *changed* at all? Or was it just responding
differently to a different milieu/stimulus?<br>
</p>
- Steve<br>
</div>
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