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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoPlainText">One of you said: <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in"><b><i><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">and I can't help but wonder
*why* individuals are so entitled to think they deserve
anything at all other than the opportunity to exist ...
if even that.</span></i></b></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>I didn't say it but I will defend it. Probably in one (or two)
of my idiosyncratic ways:</p>
<ol>
<li>I believe this was presented as more of a deep existential
point rather than a progressive social one. E.G.: "Does this
rock, the planet earth or for that matter *any planet* *deserve*
an opportunity to exist?"<br>
</li>
<li>Even as a progressive social point, I think it is critical to
notice that "what one deserves" is not commutative with "what a
given society might choose to extend". <br>
</li>
</ol>
<p>It would seem that "the Golden Rule" is reflexive but I contend
that "Do unto others because you think others will and should (be
required to?) reciprocate in kind" is not the same as "Do unto
others as a way to participate in forming a desireable collective
ethos which supports a cultural milieu in which I believe I would
enjoy a favorable existence". I believe that "the Golden Rule"'s
*gold* is in emergence. <br>
</p>
<p>Here is an interesting blog post on the topic of metal-metaphor
rules (golden, brazen, iron, etc.) and the iterated prisoner's
dilemma.</p>
<blockquote>
<p><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://sites.google.com/site/markshirey/ideas/golden-rule-and-prisoner-s-dilemma">https://sites.google.com/site/markshirey/ideas/golden-rule-and-prisoner-s-dilemma</a></p>
</blockquote>
<p>and of course the ever-popular variation on Tit-for-Tat: MOTH ;/<br>
</p>
<blockquote>
<p><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/My-Way-or-the-Highway%3A-a-More-Naturalistic-Model-of-Joyce-Kennison/5ab1a937d62363f3816c6b80a53aba5730ef5806">https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/My-Way-or-the-Highway%3A-a-More-Naturalistic-Model-of-Joyce-Kennison/5ab1a937d62363f3816c6b80a53aba5730ef5806</a><br>
</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:006301d4efcf$e8f731d0$bae59570$@earthlink.net">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in"><b><i><span
style="font-size:10.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Lurking in the back caves of my liberal
bleeding heart lurks a troll who responds badly to
"entitlement" and its close relative "victimhood."<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Every entitlement enjoyed by one person
relies on an obligation taken on by others. So the
conversation should start with deciding what obligations we
want to take on so as to afford a reasonable sense of safety
and protection for others. I happen to think that I, and my
children, and grandchildren will be happier there are basic
supports to limit poverty, disease, and despair in the
population around us. And, I am also glad when I think that
those supports will be available for me and mine, should they
become necessary. But is there a "moral hazard", here? Will
I drive less cautiously because I have automobile insurance,
smoke more and drink more Pepsi because I have health
insurance, spend more freely because there will be food
stamps? I suppose there's data on that, somewhere. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Nick<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Nicholas S. Thompson<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Emeritus Professor of Psychology and
Biology<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Clark University<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/">http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Friam [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>] On Behalf Of
Steven A Smith<br>
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2019 10:00 AM<br>
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
Subject: [FRIAM] Latent Topics was: enough sleep?</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Marcus wrote, in response to Glen:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> In the end, life is just a struggle
for power.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">I think this is technically accurate,
but may carry a cynicism which ignores some subtleties along
the way? It invokes the image attributed (I think) to
Tennyson and perhaps exploited by Dawkins to provide contrast
to support his Selfish Genery (Nick?). "Nature: Red in Tooth
and Claw".<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Edwin Wilson might anthropomorphize
"genes" in Dawkins style, with his statement “morality is an
illusion fobbed off on us by our genes to get us to
cooperate”, but it does seem to sum up one perspective on the
illusions (or realities?) that seem to come along with
cooperation<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">(symbiosis) in nature?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">From my ALife days, "Life" is a lot of
things at once, while being roughly as simple as systems which
increase negentropy in the flux of free energy sources. Your
"struggle for power" is perhaps a reflection of the
competition for better exposure to said "flux". Coherence,
Homeostasis, Reproduction, Competition for Resources... It
seems like some here have been more deeply engaged in these
topics than I... your colloquial use of "Power" would suggest
a little higher level of emergent properties, implying
networks of predator/prey, parasite/symbiote, even
ecosystems? Erwin Schroedinger in his classic _What is Life?_
seemed to reduce it as well as any physicist could, yet still
left open plenty of acknowledgement of higher level emergent
properties (I think).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">I have recently been reading up on
"plant guilds" and in particular "tree guilds" to improve how
I encourage or cultivate the landscape around my house to
become more productive and interesting for me and mine.
Recognizing the subtle interactions between highly distinct
species (from every kingdom of life) and how their resonances
can be reinforcing is fascinating. Of course, the ideal of
what is "pleasing and productive" is highly
context-dependent. I don't know what kinds of ecosystems
have evolved around "invasive species" such as tumbleweeds,
russian olives, tamarisk, but it might only be their
relatively *recent* invasion that has us considering them a
problem...<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">they haven't found an equilibrium with
the other flora, fauna and hydrogeological phenomena (riparian
in particular) and all WE recognize is the disruption of the
old order, and lament the loss of the "convenient" qualities
offered to us and ours by the old order.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">I am also 90% of the way through Richard
Powers latest Novel _Overstory_ which uses the lives and loves
of perhaps a dozen humans to expose the rich and ancient
history of and contemporary experience of Trees. It is
something of an epic opus among his many richly complex books
and characters. He did a reading at the Lensic in February
and reported that during the course of the research for this
book he moved to the edge of the Smoky Mountain National Park
to be near the old growth forest there while he finished up
the novel. The human societal metaphor of a Guild centered
around a Tree seems pale in import and complexity in the face
of his description of the legacy of trees and forests.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">- Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> As soon as one starts to think in
terms of entitled or not entitled (beyond rhetoric and
tactics), it is just taking your eye off the ball. Whether
it is for the best or not is in the end, subjective.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> Btw, it's good you point out the
concept of the "underlying thread". Same idea: There's the
stated topic of a thread and then there are latent topics.
Usually latent topics are more interesting anyway. An
individual can be a class or an individual can be one of a
billion instances of a latent class. Mostly we are all
redundant, and encouraged to be so -- the latter -- good
little consumers, churchgoers, and taxpayers.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> On 4/10/19, 7:46 AM, "Friam on
behalf of glen<span style="font-family:"Cambria
Math",serif">∈ℂ</span>" <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com%20on%20behalf%20of%20gepropella@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">friam-bounces@redfish.com
on behalf of gepropella@gmail.com</span></a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> The underlying thread seems to
be the extent to which we are part of a fluid and the extent
to which that fluid's phenomena are distinct from those
phenomena generated by the individual parts, the humans.
Individualist <span style="font-family:"Cambria
Math",serif">⇔</span> socialist spectrum, the
ontological status of groups (including whether your animals
are mere slaves or full members of your group), cyborg or
healthy organelle, etc.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> It reminds me of the quote I
think highlights the individualist's <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> arrogance: "I don't know why we're
here. But I'm pretty sure it's not <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> to enjoy ourselves." (attributed to
Wittgenstein)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> Why do we think we should ever
"feel recharged", "be happy", "be healthy", etc? I look at
the way my cats behave, compare their lives to that of the
stray we fed (and who bled all over our patio every time he
ate, who when we took him to the Feral Cat Society, killed him
right off the bat because he had so many diseases) and I can't
help but wonder *why* individuals are so entitled to think
they deserve anything at all other than the opportunity to
exist ... if even that.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">>
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