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<p>Dave/Glen -</p>
<p>What I'm hearing about some European youth cultures seems very
promising. I can't begin to know what to attribute it to, and I
feel mildly superstitious about trying to describe it as a "new
precedent" that might presage a fundamental cultural shift
following that demographic.</p>
<p>References to Molly and other consciousness-expanding drugs seem
to often come up in this context. As an outsider (but nearby
observer) to the culture of mind expanding drugs, I don't have
very informed opinions. Since terms like "worship" and
"spiritual" have come up in the text of our contemporary threads a
few times, I thought I might zoom in on this contrast as found in
the <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://psychedelictimes.com/2015/12/16/what-is-the-meaning-of-psychedelic-the-difference-between-psychedelics-hallucinogens-and-entheogens/">Psychedelic
Times</a> website:<br>
</p>
<blockquote>
<p><strong>What’s in a Name? Choosing Between Psychedelic,
Hallucinogen, and Entheogen</strong></p>
<p>The names that we have attached to consciousness-expanding
substances like psychedelic, hallucinogen, and entheogen are
important in what they say about our understanding of their
value and proper use. When people use the term hallucinogen,
there is little to no recognition in that word for the
therapeutic and beneficial applications for these substances. On
the other hand, those in line with the mystical traditions of
the world may prefer to use the term entheogen because of its
specific denotation about their inherent sacredness. And for
those who are somewhere in the middle and want to describe these
substances in a more clinical way but still honor their efficacy
at bringing forth powerful personal transformation, the term
psychedelic offers the best of both worlds.</p>
</blockquote>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">It seems to me that some of this is
about "what unites us?" It seems that independent of the
Entheogenic aspect of these drugs, some of them (MDMA and DMT
based in particular?) seem to lower the ego-boundaries (while the
others "expand"? the ego?) I'm sure there are more than a few
here who are much more familiar and informed on these topics than
I will likely ever be. The topic appears to be one of those
which is much too subjective to ever be very objective about.
"you had to be there"?</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">I have two young (30-something)close
friends/colleagues from UK/Spain who visit semi-regularly and
introduce me to a wide variety of their own euro-crowd (e.g.
Poland, E. Germany, Ukraine, Wales, Spain, etc.). What they have
in common includes being very technologically savvy but working in
highly creative/artistic domains, and being well traveled. Many
of them do not own personal vehicles, and several do not even have
drivers licenses. They seem to have very fluid boundaries
between their personal, professional, and creative lives. To my
awareness, their social fluidity is intrinsic to their culture,
but may be lubricated by their fairly pervasive use of Nicotine,
THC, Alcohol, and Caffeine... fairly standard fair among a broader
group (though Nicotine seems in severe decline among baby
boomers).</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Responding to Dave's reference to
Heinlein's _Stranger_ and the "CAW"... I read _Stranger_ a bit
too young for the material (perhaps age 12?) about 8 years after
it was published. I had hit my stride as an "unbeliever" in all
of the conventional religions I had been offered (directly or by
exposure), and while my older sister (14) was busy seeking even
harder for a religion she could sink her ego into, I was coming to
the belief that such embedding was maybe a false path and was
looking for ways to dance lightly on the surface of as many of
them as I felt were relevant to me and my trajectory in life.
The substance of _Stranger_ was very compelling to me at the time
(as was most if not all of RAH's material) but the CAW was no more
compelling than the varied Protestant churches, Catholics, and LDS
I was surrounded by. Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism,
Animism, etc. were all terms I was aware of but had very little
understanding of. They all (except maybe the last two?) seemed
to be arcane and archaic systems of "conveyed mystery" more than a
self-evident system for navigating contemporary experience.<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">I had already become mildly aware of
what was mostly derisively called "Secular Humanism" at the time
and it seemed like a "darn good foundation" for living a
thoughtful, ethical life. It seemed to me that to whatever extent
the "reserved wisdom" of any particular religion was useful, it
could be overlayed onto such a "secular" approach living a
thoughtful, ethical life. The vehemence which I saw many of the
churches *against* secular humanism respond, suggested to me that
it held something a lot more powerful than I realized. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">The recent (20 years?) fascination
among my near-peers with entheogens, and in particular DMT
variants, and more generally with the likes of Michael Pollan in
his recent _How to Change your Mind_ and not-so-recent Oliver
Sack's _Hallucinations_ , have lead me to have a more curious (if
not open?) mind on the topic.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">While it seems conceivable that there
is a significant modern progressive youth culture that might imply
a powerful paradigm shift which *depends* on MDMA (or similar)
cognitive/social lubricants/solvents to achieve this level of
social fluidity, it seems a shame if that is *necessary*. I'm
willing to acknowledge that sometimes one must take various
"shortcuts" while exploring new territory, but once the new
territory is known to exist, other more "conventional" routes
might be found. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">In my never-ending quest for handholds
for my scrambling optimism for a future for life, our species, our
culture, I am grasping... <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">- Steve<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:44ce3af6-4412-495c-b7ff-61485b303536@www.fastmail.com">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Glen,
Your comments about your Swedish friend's kids reminded me of a ethnographic expedition I once led. Four undergraduate cultural anthropology students followed me to San Francisco to do a study of "cyber culture." We started in Silicon Valley with Jared Lanier and multiple VR pioneers, which led to the electronic music culture, which led to the Castro district leather gay community, which led to Raves, and eventually to the Church of All Worlds convention north of The City.
Quite an eye opener for affluent Catholic suburbanites that attended the University of St. Thomas. Molly was on the horizon then, but Acid and Mushrooms and Cacti were in abundance.
For those not SciFi fans, CAW is the second American religion deriving from a science fiction novel; after Dianetics which orginated in Hubbard's "Battleship Earth." CAW was founded by Michael Valentine Smith in Robert Heinlein's novel "Stranger in a Strange Land." CAW remains a small but vibrant religion.
davew
On Wed, Apr 17, 2019, at 3:54 PM, glen∈ℂ wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">On 4/16/19 11:52 PM, David West wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">I am currently in Amsterdam - probably moving here for several years as two colleagues and I are starting a software development business.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">
I'm jealous! A friend of mine in Utrecht suggested we start an
organization together. But until Renee' finished school we were rooted
here.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">While abandoning the institution of religion, the Dutch (who I am coming to know) remain religious in the sense that they still have a belief system. It is a syncretic 'religion' that seamlessly blends humanism, (mostly) Protestantism, and "sciencism." This religion has no dogma, no dictats, no fatwas. An anthropomorphized/personified God is far closer to metaphor than literal assertion. What remains is a shared 'sense' of how to interpret all that is about you and how to interact with each other.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">
This sounds similar to the way my Swedish client's 20-something kids
and their crowd believe(d). It felt much more like an ethical system
than a religion. As usual, I spent more time with the kids than with
the adults ... maybe because I'm so immature ... or maybe I'm a social
vampire. But by the nature of my skeptical questioning, some of the
kids reacted (defensively) as if some of the ideas were religious
belief. But not very different from some of the near-religious beliefs
in some technical circles (e.g. the Singularity and strong AI). I also
can't help but associate their blended philosophy with the free flow of
Molly in their crowd. That group flowed smoothly between art and tech,
equally enthusiastic about microcontrollers and VR as they were about
music and art installations. The drug seemed to facilitate the blending.
As I've watched them age and settle into life paths, the frenetic
activity has waned, but the philosophy remains.
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</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">
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