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p.MsoNormal,p.MsoNoSpacing{margin:0}</style></head><body><div style="font-family:Arial;">Replying mostly to Steve's post about psychedelics /CAW,<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">I was a member of the Minneapolis Nest of CAW when I was an undergraduate student 68-72 and I must confess it was mostly about the sex, closely followed by struggles to re-define gender/social relationships/roles when everyone acknowledged, "Thou Art God." The "spiritual" never went much beyond pop, new age, psychology Gaia adoration. And psychedelics were not part of the equation.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">When I get back home to the US, I should look up my notes and writings from that time re: gender/social redefinition - it might be relevant but dated to a subset of issues that could arise from trans-humanism. How will we all interact when all of will acknowledge, "Thou Art Uploaded."<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">I have extensive experience with all of the psychedlics (psylocibin, lsd, peyote, mescaline, ariocarpus, etc.). Except for my first experience, mushrooms as I remember, none of the use was 'recreational'. All of the use was entwined with my pursuit of "mystical" insights via meditation, yoga, etc. Eventually all of that was subsumed under the research umbrella of my Ph.D. work in cognitive anthropology.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">For me, at a deeply personal level, a benefit of all this is what feels like an insight into the myriad, totally artificial, totally arbitrary facades that have been constructed around issues of epistemology. Corollary to that is the mandated privilege accorded to rational, scientific, mathematical, computational "thinking" and "knowing" even when it is evident that such thinking resolves only the simplest of questions. As our friend was always saying at FRIAM, "ah, but it is more complicated than that."<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Molly, I have found, is most useful when it forces us to confront the artificial boundaries and limitations that all of us adopt vis-a-vis interpersonal interaction. In the CAW nest, a culture of exploration/questioning/permissiveness existed that allowed the struggles to redefine mentioned in the first paragraph. Absent such a culture, Molly, in a guided context can allow similar questioning.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">davew<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">On Wed, Apr 17, 2019, at 10:53 PM, Steven A Smith wrote:<br></div><blockquote type="cite" id="qt"><p>Marcus -<br></p><blockquote cite="mid:E2AD3DB6-BFF5-419D-8F19-C00EBE2E5104@snoutfarm.com" type="cite"><div class="qt-WordSection1"><p class="qt-MsoNormal">Perhaps ... there will be more interest in
protection & enhancement cognition as well.<br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal">Of course there’s <a href="https://kernel.co/">Kernel</a> and <a href="https://www.neuralink.com/">Neuralink</a> too. <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vMO3XmNXe4">I know Kung Fu</a>!<br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><a href="https://www.cell.com/cell-reports/fulltext/S2211-1247(17)30990-7">https://www.cell.com/cell-reports/fulltext/S2211-1247(17)30990-7</a><br></p></div></blockquote><p>You have referenced various technologies and ideas which I relate
mostly to trans-humanism. The softer versions IMO are things
like advanced prosthetics, HCI enhancement and (mild) Gene Editing
on up through significant self-modification (embedded tech as well
as genetics) to the radical things folks such as Diamandis and
Kurzweil and ultimately a technological singularity. <br></p><p>There is a LOT of ground in that spectrum and we've already
covered some of it as humans. Earlier references to the
co-evolution of humans and canines were not as intentional, but
nevertheless seems to have changed "who we are". Similar
relationships with reindeer and other herd animals as well as even
various plants (e.g. what became modern grains, fruits, and
squash/melons). Tribal/cultural taboos and kinship systems
regulated "breeding", etc.<br></p><p>I came of age after the "golden age" of Speculative Fiction (I
was born under the rising sign of Sputnik) which plopped me right
into the SciFi era of more realistic Space Exploration (still
wildly speculative, but replacing old-form Space Opera with more
realistic (given the immenseness of Interstellar Space and issues
like Relativity). Proto Cyberpunk was in the air (i.e. Phillip K.
Dick, John Brunner, etc.) with the rapidly increasing relevance of
digital technology. Cyberpunk hit hard with Sterling and Gibson
and brought to a larger readership with the likes of Stephenson,
Cadigan, Banks, et al. <br></p><p>In the Spirit of the Generation W, X, Y, Z discussion. I believe
that these "bards" of Sci and Tech helped to form and seed our
imaginations for our future careers. It seems that X gen is much
more on-board with Cybernetic and Genetic enhancement.<br></p><p>My Second Cousin once removed (my mother was raised by her
grandmother, who was HER aunt) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vonda_N._McIntyre">Vonda
McIntyre</a> died a few weeks ago at 70. She was an
influential Speculative Fiction writer whose chops included
founding the Clarion West Writer's workshop and a handful of Hugo
and Nebula awards. Particularly poignant for her was beating out
JRR Martin in 97 for his Game Of Thrones with her Moon and Sun,
then having her book made into a Movie (starring Pierce Brosnan)
that *never got released* while Martin... well, you know... She
had a degree in Biology, did grad work in Genetics and hung around
the HIT (human interface and technology) lab at UW long after
graduation. Her _Starfarer_ series included the trope of
trans/post humanism, inspired or fashioned partly with her
fascination with the Pods of Orcas living amongst the San Juan
Islands nearly in her back yard. <br></p><p>I personally expect *practical* post/transhumanism to continue
inevitably at an accelerated rate and see no advantage in trying
to stand in it's way, but DO feel an ethical drive to try to at
least caution against the kinds of
technological-outrunning-of-headlights I believe already lead us
to things like Dustbowl, Wildfire, Infestation, and Inundation
disasters, and pointedly Anthropogenic Climate Change (which
contributes to all of the above) and multigenerational Refugee
Crises. <br></p><p>As an (apparent) proponent of fairly aggressive trans-humanism,
can you elaborate on what you see as the biggest promises/cautions
to the ideas involved? Do you see my "caution" as wrong headed,
or just irrelevant (in practice)?<br></p><p>- Steve<br></p><p><br></p><blockquote cite="mid:E2AD3DB6-BFF5-419D-8F19-C00EBE2E5104@snoutfarm.com" type="cite"><div class="qt-WordSection1"><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p><div style="border-right-color:currentcolor;border-right-style:none;border-right-width:medium;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-style:none;border-bottom-width:medium;border-left-color:currentcolor;border-left-style:none;border-left-width:medium;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1;border-top-color:rgb(181, 196, 223);border-top-style:solid;border-top-width:1pt;padding-top:3pt;padding-right:0in;padding-bottom:0in;padding-left:0in;"><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:black" class="colour"><span style="font-size:12pt" class="size">From: </span></span></b><span style="color:black" class="colour"><span style="font-size:12pt" class="size">Friam <a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" class="qt-moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a> on behalf of Steven A
Smith <a href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com" class="qt-moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"><sasmyth@swcp.com></a><br> <b>Reply-To: </b>The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
Coffee Group <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" class="qt-moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"><friam@redfish.com></a><br> <b>Date: </b>Wednesday, April 17, 2019 at 12:47 PM<br> <b>To: </b><a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" class="qt-moz-txt-link-rfc2396E">"friam@redfish.com"</a> <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" class="qt-moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"><friam@redfish.com></a><br> <b>Subject: </b>Re: [FRIAM] Everything she knows...</span></span></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><p>Dave/Glen -<br></p><p>What I'm hearing about some European youth cultures seems
very promising. I can't begin to know what to attribute it
to, and I feel mildly superstitious about trying to describe
it as a "new precedent" that might presage a fundamental
cultural shift following that demographic.<br></p><p>References to Molly and other consciousness-expanding drugs
seem to often come up in this context. As an outsider (but
nearby observer) to the culture of mind expanding drugs, I
don't have very informed opinions. Since terms like
"worship" and "spiritual" have come up in the text of our
contemporary threads a few times, I thought I might zoom in on
this contrast as found in the <a href="https://psychedelictimes.com/2015/12/16/what-is-the-meaning-of-psychedelic-the-difference-between-psychedelics-hallucinogens-and-entheogens/"> Psychedelic Times</a> website:<br></p><blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;"><p><b><span style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif" class="font">What’s
in a Name? Choosing Between Psychedelic, Hallucinogen,
and Entheogen</span></b><br></p><p>The names that we have attached to consciousness-expanding
substances like psychedelic, hallucinogen, and entheogen are
important in what they say about our understanding of their
value and proper use. When people use the term hallucinogen,
there is little to no recognition in that word for the
therapeutic and beneficial applications for these
substances. On the other hand, those in line with the
mystical traditions of the world may prefer to use the term
entheogen because of its specific denotation about their
inherent sacredness. And for those who are somewhere in the
middle and want to describe these substances in a more
clinical way but still honor their efficacy at bringing
forth powerful personal transformation, the term psychedelic
offers the best of both worlds.<br></p></blockquote><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">It seems to me that some of this is about
"what unites us?" It seems that independent of the
Entheogenic aspect of these drugs, some of them (MDMA and
DMT based in particular?) seem to lower the ego-boundaries
(while the others "expand"? the ego?) I'm sure there are
more than a few here who are much more familiar and informed
on these topics than I will likely ever be. The topic
appears to be one of those which is much too subjective to
ever be very objective about. "you had to be there"?<br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">I have two young (30-something)close
friends/colleagues from UK/Spain who visit semi-regularly
and introduce me to a wide variety of their own euro-crowd
(e.g. Poland, E. Germany, Ukraine, Wales, Spain, etc.).
What they have in common includes being very technologically
savvy but working in highly creative/artistic domains, and
being well traveled. Many of them do not own personal
vehicles, and several do not even have drivers licenses.
They seem to have very fluid boundaries between their
personal, professional, and creative lives. To my
awareness, their social fluidity is intrinsic to their
culture, but may be lubricated by their fairly pervasive use
of Nicotine, THC, Alcohol, and Caffeine... fairly standard
fair among a broader group (though Nicotine seems in severe
decline among baby boomers).<br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">Responding to Dave's reference to
Heinlein's _Stranger_ and the "CAW"... I read _Stranger_
a bit too young for the material (perhaps age 12?) about 8
years after it was published. I had hit my stride as an
"unbeliever" in all of the conventional religions I had been
offered (directly or by exposure), and while my older sister
(14) was busy seeking even harder for a religion she could
sink her ego into, I was coming to the belief that such
embedding was maybe a false path and was looking for ways to
dance lightly on the surface of as many of them as I felt
were relevant to me and my trajectory in life. The
substance of _Stranger_ was very compelling to me at the
time (as was most if not all of RAH's material) but the CAW
was no more compelling than the varied Protestant churches,
Catholics, and LDS I was surrounded by. Judaism, Islam,
Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, Animism, etc. were all terms I
was aware of but had very little understanding of. They
all (except maybe the last two?) seemed to be arcane and
archaic systems of "conveyed mystery" more than a
self-evident system for navigating contemporary experience.<br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">I had already become mildly aware of what
was mostly derisively called "Secular Humanism" at the time
and it seemed like a "darn good foundation" for living a
thoughtful, ethical life. It seemed to me that to whatever
extent the "reserved wisdom" of any particular religion was
useful, it could be overlayed onto such a "secular" approach
living a thoughtful, ethical life. The vehemence which I
saw many of the churches *against* secular humanism respond,
suggested to me that it held something a lot more powerful
than I realized. <br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">The recent (20 years?) fascination among
my near-peers with entheogens, and in particular DMT
variants, and more generally with the likes of Michael
Pollan in his recent _How to Change your Mind_ and
not-so-recent Oliver Sack's _Hallucinations_ , have lead me
to have a more curious (if not open?) mind on the topic.<br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">While it seems conceivable that there is
a significant modern progressive youth culture that might
imply a powerful paradigm shift which *depends* on MDMA (or
similar) cognitive/social lubricants/solvents to achieve
this level of social fluidity, it seems a shame if that is
*necessary*. I'm willing to acknowledge that sometimes one
must take various "shortcuts" while exploring new territory,
but once the new territory is known to exist, other more
"conventional" routes might be found. <br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">In my never-ending quest for handholds
for my scrambling optimism for a future for life, our
species, our culture, I am grasping...<br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">- Steve<br></p></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;"><pre>Glen,<br></pre><pre> <br></pre><pre>Your comments about your Swedish friend's kids reminded me of a ethnographic expedition I once led. Four undergraduate cultural anthropology students followed me to San Francisco to do a study of "cyber culture." We started in Silicon Valley with Jared Lanier and multiple VR pioneers, which led to the electronic music culture, which led to the Castro district leather gay community, which led to Raves, and eventually to the Church of All Worlds convention north of The City.<br></pre><pre> <br></pre><pre>Quite an eye opener for affluent Catholic suburbanites that attended the University of St. Thomas. Molly was on the horizon then, but Acid and Mushrooms and Cacti were in abundance.<br></pre><pre> <br></pre><pre>For those not SciFi fans, CAW is the second American religion deriving from a science fiction novel; after Dianetics which orginated in Hubbard's "Battleship Earth." CAW was founded by Michael Valentine Smith in Robert Heinlein's novel "Stranger in a Strange Land." CAW remains a small but vibrant religion.<br></pre><pre> <br></pre><pre>davew<br></pre><pre> <br></pre><pre> <br></pre><pre>On Wed, Apr 17, 2019, at 3:54 PM, glen<span style="font-family:"Cambria Math", serif" class="font">∈ℂ</span> wrote:<br></pre><blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;"><pre>On 4/16/19 11:52 PM, David West wrote:<br></pre><blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;"><pre>I am currently in Amsterdam - probably moving here for several years as two colleagues and I are starting a software development business.<br></pre></blockquote><pre>I'm jealous! A friend of mine in Utrecht suggested we start an <br></pre><pre>organization together. But until Renee' finished school we were rooted <br></pre><pre>here.<br></pre><pre> <br></pre><blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;"><pre>While abandoning the institution of religion, the Dutch (who I am coming to know) remain religious in the sense that they still have a belief system. It is a syncretic 'religion' that seamlessly blends humanism, (mostly) Protestantism, and "sciencism." This religion has no dogma, no dictats, no fatwas. An anthropomorphized/personified God is far closer to metaphor than literal assertion. What remains is a shared 'sense' of how to interpret all that is about you and how to interact with each other.<br></pre></blockquote><pre>This sounds similar to the way my Swedish client's 20-something kids <br></pre><pre>and their crowd believe(d). It felt much more like an ethical system <br></pre><pre>than a religion. As usual, I spent more time with the kids than with <br></pre><pre>the adults ... maybe because I'm so immature ... or maybe I'm a social <br></pre><pre>vampire. But by the nature of my skeptical questioning, some of the <br></pre><pre>kids reacted (defensively) as if some of the ideas were religious <br></pre><pre>belief. But not very different from some of the near-religious beliefs <br></pre><pre>in some technical circles (e.g. the Singularity and strong AI). I also <br></pre><pre>can't help but associate their blended philosophy with the free flow of <br></pre><pre>Molly in their crowd. That group flowed smoothly between art and tech, <br></pre><pre>equally enthusiastic about microcontrollers and VR as they were about <br></pre><pre>music and art installations. The drug seemed to facilitate the blending.<br></pre><pre> <br></pre><pre>As I've watched them age and settle into life paths, the frenetic <br></pre><pre>activity has waned, but the philosophy remains.<br></pre><pre> <br></pre><pre>============================================================<br></pre><pre>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br></pre><pre>Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College<br></pre><pre>to unsubscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br></pre><pre>archives back to 2003: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br></pre><pre>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> by Dr. Strangelove<br></pre><pre> <br></pre></blockquote><pre>============================================================<br></pre><pre>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br></pre><pre>Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College<br></pre><pre>to unsubscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br></pre><pre>archives back to 2003: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br></pre><pre>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> by Dr. Strangelove<br></pre><pre> <br></pre></blockquote></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><pre class="qt-moz-quote-pre" wrap="">============================================================
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