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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link="#0563C1" vlink="#954F72"><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoPlainText>Russell, <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>THANK you. Courtesy of Google (and Dodgson)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'><b><i><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif'>"Alice laughed: "There's no use trying," she said; "one can't believe impossible things." "I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I was younger, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>As for your second point, my understanding of materialism is, \u201cEverything real consists of matter <b><i>and it\u2019s relations</i></b>. \u201c So, your crossed spear, a good example of a material relation, is consistent with diehard materialism. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Remember, I said I was a rejected Harvard English Major. I made my first materialist stand when I said in that I preferred Dreiser to James. The tutor, a James scholar, I later discovered, pulled himself up to his full height (which must have been at least 5\u20197\u201d and said, \u201cNOBODY who could utter those words deserves to be an English Major at Haaaahvud.\u201d And that was that. Had I stayed another year, I might have lost entirely my capacity for scientific thought. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>I like the sound of \u201cAmoeba\u2019s Secret\u201d and will try to put my hands on it. I was particularly tantalized by this passage, gleaned from \u201cLook Inside\u201d: <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><img width=409 height=140 id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image003.jpg@01D4FBBD.BA34CC00"><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Russell, I wish you could be here to meet with us tomorrow.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>All the best, <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Nick <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Nicholas S. Thompson<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Clark University<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Friam [mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Russell Standish<br>Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2019 9:35 PM<br>To: Friam <Friam@redfish.com><br>Subject: Re: [FRIAM] What Are We Monists Moaning About?</p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>If you read the section of my book entitled "Other 'isms in Philosophy of the Mind", I examine the theory outlined earlier in the book (Theory of Nothing) to see how it fitted into Chalmer's 7 classifications of the theory of the mind.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>I concluded that actually I held 6 out of the 7 positions simultaneously.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>I think it is quite possible to be both a dualist and a monist simultaneously. Even a hardcore materialist will admit that relationships between things (eg the angle made by crossing two spears) are distinctly nonmaterial things.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Of course, YMMV.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>As for what a Turing machine may know, you could take a look at Bruno Marchal's theory, which is developed in terms of modal logic. His book I translated "Amoeba's Secret" is probably the gentlest introduction. Not sure what an English major might make of it though :).<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>On Thu, Apr 25, 2019 at 12:45:43PM -0600, Nick Thompson wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Dear Friammers,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> The subject line is the title of an article I am thinking about writing for the<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Annals of Geriatric Maundering, and I want your help. If you think that I am<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> offering you an opportunity to waste your time, in service of advancing my<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> career, you are, of course exactly correct. Some of you have accused me of<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> starting a fight on FRIAM when a good scholar would actually check out <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> large, heavy books from the library. That criticism is precise and <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> apt. My excuse is I have two disabilities for true scholarship: my <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> eyesight sucks, and I am lazy. So, here we go.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> To be a monist is first and foremost to be NOT a dualist. The most <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> familiar form of dualism is the mind/body dualism, which is so <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> embedded in our language that it is hard to speak without depending on <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> it. According to this dualism, there are two kinds of stuff, mind and <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> matter. Dualists like to talk about the interaction of these two <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> kinds of stuff, and are delighted when they discover isomorphisms <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> between events in consciousness and events in the brain. They like to <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> discuss such topics as \u201cinformation\u201d and \u201crepresentation\u201d. Dualists <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> are fond of the subject object distinction, and are enthralled by the mysteries of \u201cinner\u201d states. They like to talk about inverted spectrums. They hail the<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Privacy of Mind. Most of you are closet dualists. You LIKE to think you are<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> materialists, but if you were materialists you would have to be <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> monists, and you wouldn\u2019t like that, as you will plainly see. I should confess that<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> dualists, particularly closet dualists, drive me crazy. Just sayin\u2019. And as<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> I have assured you many times, I love you all anyway. In fact, <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> probably would have died years ago, if you had not kept me active.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Dualists are flanked on one side by pluralists and on the other by monists. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Pluralists are plainly crazy, and, besides, I don\u2019t know any, so we <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> won\u2019t bother with pluralism. Monism is clearly the way to go. There <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> are two familiar kinds of monism: idealism and materialism. An <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> idealist insists that everything real consists of ideas and relations <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> between ideas; a materialist insists that everything real consists of <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> matter and its relations. If you ask an idealist about matter and <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> s/he will say, \u201cWhat is this \u201cmatter\u201d of which you speak? All we have <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> is ideas about matter. If you ask a materialist about ideas, he will <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> say, \u201cWhat are these \u201cideas\u201d of which you speak? Ideas are just <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> arrangements of matter\u201d Of the two, I prefer materialism. It is <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> easier for me to reduce ideas to relations amongst matter than it is <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> to reduce matter to relations among ideas. But neither of these forms <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> of monism seem quite honest to me, because each implies the other. To put it bluntly, realists and materials are all closet dualists.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> The remaining option is \u201cneutral\u201d monism. Being a neutral monist is <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> very hard because people demand that you answer the question, \u201cOf what <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> does everything real consist?\u201d It is VERY hard to answer that <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> question without becoming a closet dualist. The answer requires some <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> sort of noun (or gerund) and therefore, any response implies its <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> opposite or absence, and thus relapses into closet dualism.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> One possibility I have considered is \u201cevent monism\u201d . Everything real <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> consists of events and their relations. I like the concept of event <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> because it does not conjure up its opposite or absence quite so <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> relentlessly. What is a non-event or the absence of an event, really? <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> It\u2019s an event in itself, right? We speak of days when nothing <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> happened, but we don\u2019t really mean it. Something DID happen; it just <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> wasn\u2019t very interesting. On the other hand, it does not accommodate \u201crelations\u201d talk very well.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> A extreme solution is to take a kind of mathematical notational approach and<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> just go for the relations: \u201cEverything that is real consists of [ ] and its<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> relations\u201d; i.e., everything real consists of [[[[[[[[[ ]\u2026]\u2026.]\u2026.] etc. ad<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> infinitum. In words, \u201cEverything real consists of relations and their <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> relations.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Neither of these solutions is very satisfying and both are <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> rhetorically ungainly. By default, have started to call myself as an \u201cExperience Monist\u201d.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> When people look at me slyly and ask, \u201cExperience of what?\u201d I say, \u201cOf other<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> experiences\u201d. And when they inevitably ask, \u201cWhat was the first experience<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> of?\u201d, I ask them , \u201cHow many first experiences were there?\u201d After they <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> say, \u201cOne,\u201d I ask. \u201cAnd how many subsequent experiences have there <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> been?\u201d And when they answer, \u201cOh, gosh, lots. Almost an infinite <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> number.\u201d I say, \u201cWell, then let\u2019s deal with the first one after we have dealt with all the others, mmmmm?\u201d<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> You call this cheap sophistry, but I think the line of argument is <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> fair because our obsession with \u201corigins\u201d (or \u201coranges\u201d, for that <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> matter) smacks of theology, and I am thoroughly fed up with theology. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> \u201cLet\u2019s begin in the middle,\u201d I say, \u201cAnd not spend so much time <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> worrying about the beginning and the end.\u201d<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> And now we get to the crazy bit, the part where I imagine that <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> FRIAMmers might help out. This conception of The Real always reminds me of a Turing Machine.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> That I make this connection might seem odd to you. You might wonder <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> what a flunked-out Harvard English major is doing with thoughts about <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> a Turing Machine. Fair question. So how is it that I imagine a Turing Machine?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> A Turing Machine (in my imagination) is a device that is capable of <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> only three operations, punching a tape, moving a tape, and reading a <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> tape. Uh, oh, I need a 4^th. I need it to be able to punch a tape <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> and move a tape on the basis of what it finds on the tape. Oh, gosh, <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> I need a 5^th. I need there to be punches on the tape NOT punched by <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> the machine itself. Oh, and a 6^th: the survival of the machine <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> needs to depend on anticipating patterns on the tape<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> OH CRAP! I THINK I JUST BECAME A DUALIST!<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Has anybody written an article entitled, \u201cWhat does the Turing Machine know?\u201d<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Would a flunked-out Harvard English Major understand it? Could you <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> give me the link?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Nicholas S. Thompson<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Clark University<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <a href="http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> ============================================================<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> at St. John's College to unsubscribe <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> archives back to 2003: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</span></a> by Dr. Strangelove<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>-- <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>----------------------------------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Dr Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Principal, High Performance Coders<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Visiting Senior Research Fellow <a href="mailto:hpcoder@hpcoders.com.au"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>hpcoder@hpcoders.com.au</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Economics, Kingston University <a href="http://www.hpcoders.com.au"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>http://www.hpcoders.com.au</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>----------------------------------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>============================================================<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>archives back to 2003: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</span></a> by Dr. Strangelove<o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>