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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Larding below.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Nicholas S. Thompson<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Clark University<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><a href="http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/"><span style='color:#0563C1'>http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> Friam [mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Frank Wimberly<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, April 26, 2019 8:19 PM<br><b>To:</b> Russ.Abbott@gmail.com; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] A question for tomorrow<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>On the way to Friam I said to Nick. Turing Machines don't know anything. They may store representations of knowledge. <b><i><span style='color:#1F497D'>[NST==>Frank: This is how I understand you. The relation between a Turing Machine and knowledge is like the relation between Mathematics and the events or processes it models. All the knowledge is in the interpretation translate “life” into something that the Math or Machine can compute and in the interpretation that translate the results of the computation back into life. Let’s see. What am I accusing you of here. OH. I have it. I am accusing you of a mathematicians understanding of computation. Is that understanding of that relation canonical? <==nst] </span></i></b> I further said that a photograph also represents knowledge. For example, the number of floors of a given building. Most people would be puzzled by the question, "What does a photo know?"<b><i><span style='color:#1F497D'>[NST==>I think the metaphor is unfair. Nobody has ever accused a photograph of being able to play chess, or to engage in other tasks which are broadly seen (at least by defrocked English majors) as cognitive. <==nst] </span></i></b><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>There were multiple parallel conversations after we arrived. I don't recall additional discussions about what Turing Machines know.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><i><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>[NST==>Except at the very end, after 3 hours of discussing other things. By that time I was exhausted, and I don’t remember what we said. We spent a lot of time exploring our attractions to unorthodox scientific opinion in such matters as MSG and headaches, auras, pigeon navigation, an even, by implication, the tin-hat stuff. It’s a question I would love to poll the FRIAM list on: How many of you engage in unproven health practices of various sorts, even though “science” tells you they are worthless? Why, exactly? How is that consistent with your criticisms of climate science deniers? <==nst] <o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><i><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Gotta go, <o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><i><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Thanks everybody, <o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><i><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></i></b></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><i><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>N</span></i></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>-----------------------------------<br>Frank Wimberly<br><br>My memoir:<br><a href="https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly">https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly</a><br><br>My scientific publications:<br><a href="https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2">https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2</a><br><br>Phone (505) 670-9918<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Fri, Apr 26, 2019, 8:06 PM Russ Abbott <<a href="mailto:russ.abbott@gmail.com">russ.abbott@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Nick, I can't believe you are asking such a question -- unless by "know" you mean something very different from the common understanding. No computer <i>knows</i> anything, although it may have lots of stored information. (<i>Information </i>is meant in the Shannon sense.) <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>For example, Oxford <a href="https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/knowledge" target="_blank">defines</a> knowledge as "</span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#2A2A2A'>Facts, information, and skills acquired through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject." This is distinct from, for example, having access to an encyclopedia--or even having memorized the contents of one. Turing machines, and computers in general, do not have an <i>understanding </i>of anything--even though they may have lots of Shannon-style information (which <i>we </i>understand as) related to some subject.</span><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>(Like Glen, though, I am interested in the results, if any, of this morning's meeting.)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>-- Russ Abbott <br>Professor, Computer Science<br>California State University, Los Angeles<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 2:38 PM uǝlƃ <span style='font-family:"Segoe UI Symbol",sans-serif'>☣</span> <<a href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com" target="_blank">gepropella@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><p class=MsoNormal>What was the result of this morning's conversation?<br><br>On 4/25/19 10:50 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:<br>> What does a Turing Machine know?<br><br><br>-- <br><span style='font-family:"Segoe UI Symbol",sans-serif'>☣</span> uǝlƃ<br><br>============================================================<br>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College<br>to unsubscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>archives back to 2003: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/FRIAM-COMIC" target="_blank">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/<br>FRIAM-COMIC</a> <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> by Dr. Strangelove<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal>============================================================<br>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College<br>to unsubscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>archives back to 2003: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" target="_blank">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> by Dr. Strangelove<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div></div></body></html>