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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Russ II, <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Good to be back in touch with you. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>The question is certainly naļve. So nobody other than me (John? Jon? David? Lee? Eric? HELP!) is willing to breath <i>some</i> life into it, then that IS its answer. But while awaiting Higher Authority, let me say a couple of things. See Larding. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Nick <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Nicholas S. Thompson<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Clark University<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><a href="http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/"><span style='color:#0563C1'>http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> Friam [mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Russ Abbott<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, April 26, 2019 8:06 PM<br><b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] A question for tomorrow<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Nick, I can't believe you are asking such a question -- unless by "know" you mean something very different from the common understanding.</span><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><i><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>[NST==> If I remember correctly our earlier argument, yours is an inprinciple argument against any claim that machines and humans are ever doing the same thing, right? So, I could imagine the most complicated computer imaginable \u2026 quantum computer, or whatever you guys would call it \u2026 and you would say that that computer cannot \u201cknow\u201d or \u201cthink\u201d or \u201cfeel\u201d or \u201cperceive\u201d, etc. <==nst] <o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>No computer <i>knows</i> anything, although it may have lots of stored information. (<i>Information </i>is meant in the Shannon sense.) <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><i><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>[NST==>So, there is no intentionality in Shannon Weaver \u201cinformation\u201d, right. SW information is not \u201cinformation that \u2026\u201d. But SW information is a concept that grows out of communication theory, right? So, Dawes communicated one bit of information when he hung out the lanterns at the top of the Old North Church. (\u201cOne if by land and two if by sea, and I on the opposite shore shall be.\u201d), if you take for granted that the British were coming, one way or the other. So the basic idea is that before the lanterns went up, Revere (on the other shore) had two possibilities, and after the lanterns went up, he had only one. His uncertainty, if you will was reduced by one bit by the information communicated by Dawes\u2019s lanterns. I am not sure what it means to talk about SW information outside of a communication context. <==nst] </span></i></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>For example, Oxford <a href="https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/knowledge">defines</a> knowledge as "</span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#2A2A2A'>Facts, information, and skills acquired through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject." This is distinct from, for example, having access to an encyclopedia--or even having memorized the contents of one. Turing machines, and computers in general, do not have an <i>understanding </i>of anything--even though they may have lots of Shannon-style information (which <i>we </i>understand as) related to some subject.</span><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>(Like Glen, though, I am interested in the results, if any, of this morning's meeting.)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><i><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>[NST==>I think most people thought it was an ill-formed question, but were too polite to say so. <==nst] <o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><i><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></i></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><i><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>I will lard Frank\u2019s message in the next email.<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><i><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></i></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><i><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Thanks, again, <o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><i><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></i></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><i><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>N</span></i></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>-- Russ Abbott <br>Professor, Computer Science<br>California State University, Los Angeles<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 2:38 PM u\u01ddl\u0183 <span style='font-family:"Segoe UI Symbol",sans-serif'>\u2623</span> <<a href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com">gepropella@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><p class=MsoNormal>What was the result of this morning's conversation?<br><br>On 4/25/19 10:50 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:<br>> What does a Turing Machine know?<br><br><br>-- <br><span style='font-family:"Segoe UI Symbol",sans-serif'>\u2623</span> u\u01ddl\u0183<br><br>============================================================<br>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College<br>to unsubscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>archives back to 2003: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/FRIAM-COMIC" target="_blank">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/<br>FRIAM-COMIC</a> <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> by Dr. Strangelove<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div></div></body></html>