<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">I remember part of mine. The anesthesia was a bit <i>too</i> light. At one point I felt the instrument in me. I opened my eyes and grunted. They gave me a bit more anesthesia.</div><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Apr 27, 2019 at 11:35 AM Frank Wimberly <<a href="mailto:wimberly3@gmail.com">wimberly3@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto">No.  But people who are under light anesthesia such as during a colonoscopy sometimes talk.  I don't think they remember that.<br><br><div>-----------------------------------<br>Frank Wimberly<br><br>My memoir:<br><a href="https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly" target="_blank">https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly</a><br><br>My scientific publications:<br><a href="https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2" target="_blank">https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2</a><br><br>Phone (505) 670-9918</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Apr 27, 2019, 12:32 PM Nick Thompson <<a href="mailto:nickthompson@earthlink.net" target="_blank">nickthompson@earthlink.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-US"><div class="gmail-m_4443133036918508908m_-1887162014721862930WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Oh, yes.  We agree that I was unconscious.  And if you had been there, you would have experienced my unconsciousness.  But did I?  I think a person who adopts your position has to say, “No.”<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Nicholas S. Thompson<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Clark University<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><a href="http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(5,99,193)">http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/</span></a><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> Friam [mailto:<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Frank Wimberly<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, April 27, 2019 12:16 PM<br><b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">friam@redfish.com</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] A Question For Tomorrow<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">Yes, you were unconscious.  As you know, I had that experience a few days ago.<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt">Frank<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">-----------------------------------<br>Frank Wimberly<br><br>My memoir:<br><a href="https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly</a><br><br>My scientific publications:<br><a href="https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2</a><br><br>Phone (505) 670-9918<u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Sat, Apr 27, 2019, 12:13 PM Nick Thompson <<a href="mailto:nickthompson@earthlink.net" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">nickthompson@earthlink.net</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Hi Frank, </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">The problem is that one has immediately to ask, what is the contrast class of experiencing consciousness?  Experiencing non-consciousness?  I think for your line of thinking, where consciousness is direct, that’s an oxymoron.  For my line of thinking, when I woke up from my surgery and 24 hours had passed, I had a powerful experience of my non-consciousness.  </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Nick </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Nicholas S. Thompson</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Clark University</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><a href="http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(5,99,193)">http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/</span></a></span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> Friam [mailto:<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Frank Wimberly<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, April 27, 2019 11:33 AM<br><b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">friam@redfish.com</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] A Question For Tomorrow</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">Jon,<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">How about "experiences consciousness" in place of has consciousness.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Frsnk<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">-----------------------------------<br>Frank Wimberly<br><br>My memoir:<br><a href="https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly</a><br><br>My scientific publications:<br><a href="https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2</a><br><br>Phone (505) 670-9918<u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Sat, Apr 27, 2019, 11:03 AM Jon Zingale <<a href="mailto:jonzingale@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">jonzingale@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt"><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)">Nick,</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)"> </span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)">I love that the title of this thread is 'A question for tomorrow'.</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)">My position continues to be that the label `conscious` is meaningful,</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)">though along with you, I am not sure what language to use around it.</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)">For instance, can something <i>have</i> consciousness? That said, a</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)">conservative scoping of the phenomena I would wish to describe</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)">with <i>consciousness language</i> begins with granting consciousness</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)">to more than 7 billion things on this planet alone. Presently, for those</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)">that agree thus far, it appears that the only way to synthesize new things</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)">with consciousness is to have sex (up to some crude equivalence).</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)">This constraint seems an unreasonable limitation and so the problem</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)">of synthesizing consciousness strikes me as reasonably near, ie.</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)"> `a question for tomorrow` and not some distant future.</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)"> </span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)">You begin by asking about the Turing machine, an abstraction which</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)">summarizes what we can say about processing information. Here,</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)">I am going to extend Lee's comment and ask that we consider</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)">particular implementations or better particular embodiments.</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)"> </span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)">Hopefully said without too much hubris, given enough time and</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)">memory, I can compute anything that a Turing machine can compute.</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)">The games `Magic the Gathering` and `Mine Craft` are Turing</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)">complete. I would suspect that under some characterization, the</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)">Mississippi river is Turing complete. It would be a real challenge</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)">for me state what abstractions like `Mine Craft` experience, but</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)">sometimes I can speak to my own experience. Oscar Hammerstein</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)">mused about what Old Man River knows.</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)"> </span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)">Naively, it seems to me that some kind of information processing,</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)">though not sufficient, is necessary for experience and for a foundations</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)">for consciousness. Whether the information processor needs to be</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)">Turing complete is not immediately obvious to me, perhaps a finite-</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)">state machine will do. Still, I do not think that a complete description of</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)">consciousness (or whatever it means to experience) can exist without</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)">speaking to how it is that a thing comes to sense its world.</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)"> </span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)">For instance, in the heyday of analogue synthesizers,  musicians</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)">would slog these machines from city to city, altitude to altitude,</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)">desert to rain-forested coast and these machines would notoriously</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)">respond in kind. Their finicky capacitors would experience the</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)">change and changes in micro-farads would ensue. What does an</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)">analogue synthesizer know?</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)"> </span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)">Cheers,</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)">Jonathan Zingale</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)"> </span><u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal">============================================================<br>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College<br>to unsubscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>archives back to 2003: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> by Dr. Strangelove<u></u><u></u></p></blockquote></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal">============================================================<br>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College<br>to unsubscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>archives back to 2003: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> by Dr. Strangelove<u></u><u></u></p></blockquote></div></div></div>============================================================<br>
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College<br>
to unsubscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>
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FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> by Dr. Strangelove<br>
</blockquote></div>
============================================================<br>
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College<br>
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