<div dir="auto">I underwent a laminectoforaminotomy<div dir="auto">In which piece of a vertebra is removed to permit access to the foramin, the tunnel through which a nerve passes from the spinal cord to, for example, an arm.  My seven year-old grandson wanted to know if the surgeon had done this before.  The doc said that he had done it a few times and that he was a smart seven year-old.  I suspect it's routine for a neurosurgeon.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">You probably need to be unconscious for this.  They put pins in your skull to keep you from moving.  But it's considered minimally invasive surgery.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Frank<br><br><div data-smartmail="gmail_signature" dir="auto">-----------------------------------<br>Frank Wimberly<br><br>My memoir:<br><a href="https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly">https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly</a><br><br>My scientific publications:<br><a href="https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2">https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2</a><br><br>Phone (505) 670-9918</div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Apr 28, 2019, 2:51 PM Prof David West <<a href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm">profwest@fastmail.fm</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><u></u><div><div style="font-family:Arial">Last colonoscopy I was thoroughly anesthetized but totally conscious. In recovery room, doctor explaining he had removed three minor polyps and I interrupted to say I thought I counted four. Shocked look on his part then told me the fourth was more like a skin tag. The anesthesia did prevent feeling, just not consciousness. <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">Dave west</div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">On Sat, Apr 27, 2019, at 8:35 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:<br></div><blockquote type="cite" id="m_3089544691370754907qt"><div dir="auto"><div style="font-family:Arial">No.  But people who are under light anesthesia such as during a colonoscopy sometimes talk.  I don't think they remember that.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div><div style="font-family:Arial">-----------------------------------<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">Frank Wimberly<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">My memoir:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><a href="https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">My scientific publications:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><a href="https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">Phone (505) 670-9918<br></div></div></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div class="m_3089544691370754907qt-gmail_quote"><div class="m_3089544691370754907qt-gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Sat, Apr 27, 2019, 12:32 PM Nick Thompson <<a href="mailto:nickthompson@earthlink.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">nickthompson@earthlink.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class="m_3089544691370754907qt-gmail_quote"><div lang="EN-US"><div class="m_3089544691370754907qt-m_-1887162014721862930WordSection1"><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="m_3089544691370754907size">Oh, yes.  We agree that I was unconscious.  And if you had been there, you would have experienced my unconsciousness.  But did I?  I think a person who adopts your position has to say, “No.”<u></u><u></u></span></span></span><br></p><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="m_3089544691370754907size"><u></u> <u></u></span></span></span><br></p><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="m_3089544691370754907size">Nicholas S. Thompson<u></u><u></u></span></span></span><br></p><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="m_3089544691370754907size">Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology<u></u><u></u></span></span></span><br></p><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="m_3089544691370754907size">Clark University<u></u><u></u></span></span></span><br></p><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="m_3089544691370754907size"><a rel="noreferrer noreferrer" href="http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(5,99,193)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour">http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/</span></a><u></u><u></u></span></span></span><br></p><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="m_3089544691370754907size"><u></u> <u></u></span></span></span><br></p><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="m_3089544691370754907size">From:</span></span></b><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="m_3089544691370754907size"> Friam [mailto:<a rel="noreferrer noreferrer" href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Frank Wimberly<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, April 27, 2019 12:16 PM<br><b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a rel="noreferrer noreferrer" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam@redfish.com</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] A Question For Tomorrow<u></u><u></u></span></span></p><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u><br></p><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal">Yes, you were unconscious.  As you know, I had that experience a few days ago.<u></u><u></u><br></p><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u><br></p></div><div><p style="margin-bottom:12pt" class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal">Frank<u></u><u></u><br></p><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"></p><div style="font-family:Arial">-----------------------------------<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">Frank Wimberly<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">My memoir:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><a rel="noreferrer noreferrer" href="https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly" target="_blank">https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">My scientific publications:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><a rel="noreferrer noreferrer" href="https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2" target="_blank">https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">Phone (505) 670-9918<u></u><u></u><br></div><p></p></div></div></div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u><br></p><div><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal">On Sat, Apr 27, 2019, 12:13 PM Nick Thompson <<a rel="noreferrer noreferrer" href="mailto:nickthompson@earthlink.net" target="_blank">nickthompson@earthlink.net</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u><br></p></div><blockquote style="border-top-width:initial;border-right-width:initial;border-bottom-width:initial;border-top-style:none;border-right-style:none;border-bottom-style:none;border-top-color:initial;border-right-color:initial;border-bottom-color:initial;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-top:0in;padding-right:0in;padding-bottom:0in;padding-left:6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"><div><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="m_3089544691370754907size">Hi Frank, </span></span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="m_3089544691370754907size"> </span></span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="m_3089544691370754907size">The problem is that one has immediately to ask, what is the contrast class of experiencing consciousness?  Experiencing non-consciousness?  I think for your line of thinking, where consciousness is direct, that’s an oxymoron.  For my line of thinking, when I woke up from my surgery and 24 hours had passed, I had a powerful experience of my non-consciousness.  </span></span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="m_3089544691370754907size"> </span></span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="m_3089544691370754907size">Nick </span></span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="m_3089544691370754907size"> </span></span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="m_3089544691370754907size">Nicholas S. Thompson</span></span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="m_3089544691370754907size">Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology</span></span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="m_3089544691370754907size">Clark University</span></span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="m_3089544691370754907size"><a rel="noreferrer noreferrer" href="http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(5,99,193)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour">http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/</span></a></span></span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="m_3089544691370754907size"> </span></span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="m_3089544691370754907size">From:</span></span></b><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="m_3089544691370754907size"> Friam [mailto:<a rel="noreferrer noreferrer" href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Frank Wimberly<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, April 27, 2019 11:33 AM<br><b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a rel="noreferrer noreferrer" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam@redfish.com</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] A Question For Tomorrow</span></span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u><br></p><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal">Jon,<u></u><u></u><br></p><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u><br></p></div><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal">How about "experiences consciousness" in place of has consciousness.<u></u><u></u><br></p></div><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u><br></p></div><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal">Frsnk<u></u><u></u><br></p></div><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u><br></p><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"></p><div style="font-family:Arial">-----------------------------------<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">Frank Wimberly<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">My memoir:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><a rel="noreferrer noreferrer" href="https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly" target="_blank">https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">My scientific publications:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><a rel="noreferrer noreferrer" href="https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2" target="_blank">https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">Phone (505) 670-9918<u></u><u></u><br></div><p></p></div></div></div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u><br></p><div><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal">On Sat, Apr 27, 2019, 11:03 AM Jon Zingale <<a rel="noreferrer noreferrer" href="mailto:jonzingale@gmail.com" target="_blank">jonzingale@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u><br></p></div><blockquote style="border-top-width:initial;border-right-width:initial;border-bottom-width:initial;border-top-style:none;border-right-style:none;border-bottom-style:none;border-top-color:initial;border-right-color:initial;border-bottom-color:initial;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-top:0in;padding-right:0in;padding-bottom:0in;padding-left:6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5pt"><div><div><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font">Nick,</span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p></div><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font"> </span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p></div><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font">I love that the title of this thread is 'A question for tomorrow'.</span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p></div><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font">My position continues to be that the label `conscious` is meaningful,</span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p></div><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font">though along with you, I am not sure what language to use around it.</span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p></div><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font">For instance, can something <i>have</i> consciousness? That said, a</span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p></div><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font">conservative scoping of the phenomena I would wish to describe</span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p></div><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font">with <i>consciousness language</i> begins with granting consciousness</span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p></div><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font">to more than 7 billion things on this planet alone. Presently, for those</span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p></div><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font">that agree thus far, it appears that the only way to synthesize new things</span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p></div><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font">with consciousness is to have sex (up to some crude equivalence).</span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p></div><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font">This constraint seems an unreasonable limitation and so the problem</span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p></div><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font">of synthesizing consciousness strikes me as reasonably near, ie.</span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p></div><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font"> `a question for tomorrow` and not some distant future.</span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p></div><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font"> </span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p></div><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font">You begin by asking about the Turing machine, an abstraction which</span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p></div><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font">summarizes what we can say about processing information. Here,</span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p></div><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font">I am going to extend Lee's comment and ask that we consider</span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p></div><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font">particular implementations or better particular embodiments.</span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p></div><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font"> </span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p></div><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font">Hopefully said without too much hubris, given enough time and</span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p></div><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font">memory, I can compute anything that a Turing machine can compute.</span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p></div><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font">The games `Magic the Gathering` and `Mine Craft` are Turing</span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p></div><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font">complete. I would suspect that under some characterization, the</span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p></div><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font">Mississippi river is Turing complete. It would be a real challenge</span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p></div><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font">for me state what abstractions like `Mine Craft` experience, but</span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p></div><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font">sometimes I can speak to my own experience. Oscar Hammerstein</span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p></div><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font">mused about what Old Man River knows.</span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p></div><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font"> </span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p></div><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font">Naively, it seems to me that some kind of information processing,</span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p></div><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font">though not sufficient, is necessary for experience and for a foundations</span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p></div><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font">for consciousness. Whether the information processor needs to be</span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p></div><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font">Turing complete is not immediately obvious to me, perhaps a finite-</span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p></div><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font">state machine will do. Still, I do not think that a complete description of</span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p></div><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font">consciousness (or whatever it means to experience) can exist without</span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p></div><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font">speaking to how it is that a thing comes to sense its world.</span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p></div><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font"> </span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p></div><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font">For instance, in the heyday of analogue synthesizers,  musicians</span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p></div><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font">would slog these machines from city to city, altitude to altitude,</span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p></div><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font">desert to rain-forested coast and these machines would notoriously</span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p></div><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font">respond in kind. Their finicky capacitors would experience the</span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p></div><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font">change and changes in micro-farads would ensue. What does an</span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p></div><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font">analogue synthesizer know?</span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p></div><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font"> </span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p></div><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font">Cheers,</span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p></div><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font">Jonathan Zingale</span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p></div><div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51)" class="m_3089544691370754907colour"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" class="m_3089544691370754907font"> </span></span><u></u><u></u><br></p></div></div></div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"></p><div style="font-family:Arial">============================================================<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">to unsubscribe <a rel="noreferrer noreferrer" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">archives back to 2003: <a rel="noreferrer noreferrer" href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" target="_blank">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">FRIAM-COMIC <a rel="noreferrer noreferrer" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> by Dr. Strangelove<u></u><u></u><br></div><p></p></blockquote></div></div></div><p class="m_3089544691370754907qt-MsoNormal"></p><div style="font-family:Arial">============================================================<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">to unsubscribe <a rel="noreferrer noreferrer" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">archives back to 2003: <a rel="noreferrer noreferrer" href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" target="_blank">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">FRIAM-COMIC <a rel="noreferrer noreferrer" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> by Dr. Strangelove<u></u><u></u><br></div><p></p></blockquote></div></div></div><div style="font-family:Arial">============================================================<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"> to unsubscribe <a rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"> archives back to 2003: <a rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" target="_blank">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"> FRIAM-COMIC <a rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> by Dr. Strangelove<br></div></blockquote></div><div>============================================================<br></div><div>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br></div><div>Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College<br></div><div>to unsubscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br></div><div>archives back to 2003: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br></div><div>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> by Dr. Strangelove<br></div><div><br></div></blockquote><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div></div>============================================================<br>
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College<br>
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FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> by Dr. Strangelove<br>
</blockquote></div>