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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Nick -<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">No,
Steve. Absolutely not. No Way. </span></p>
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<p>Whether FriAM's server or my mailer's mode of larding vs your
mode of reading it, you misattribute these words to me when they
were in fact Dave's... what follows *after* that, namely the
Lakoff/Nunez reference and discussion of that perspective is mine.</p>
<p>Carry on!</p>
<p> - Steve<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:00a101d59e38$a531d000$ef957000$@earthlink.net">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">How about
an assertion that there is <b><u>A</u></b> Reality beyond <b><u>"ordinary"</u></b>
experience; with "ordinary experience" being the half-dozen
or so overt sensory inputs (sight, sound, balance, touch,
taste, smell) we typically associate with experience<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">No.
There lies spiritualist blather. Having pried me away
from my monism, you are driving me back toward it. <b><i>Ex
hypothesi</i></b>, what ever your R. B. O. E. might be
asserted to be, it is, in fact, a construction of
experience. Because, we agreed, there is no other source,
right? Now, if you want to introduce God’s Love or Extra
Sensory Intuition, or the Wisdom of the Spheres, we can
talk. But e ven if you stipulate additonal senses,
beyond the six, they are still contributing to
experience. Unless you are willing to stipulate some
other source of knowledge beyond experience, we have to
admit that while some experiences, because of their
capacity to integrate others, get the label “extra
ordinary” they must be, after all, just experiences and
experiences of other experiences, ad infinitum. To assert
more is to engage in epistemological smugness. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">By
the way, the FRIAM server continues to mix things up,
putting little obstacles to our communication. So, for
instance, I don’t have Dave’s original response to what
Steve responded to. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Nick
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">
Nicholas S. Thompson<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Emeritus
Professor of Psychology and Biology<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Clark
University<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><a
href="http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#0563C1">http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
Friam [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>] <b>On Behalf
Of </b>Steven A Smith<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 18, 2019 9:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] flattening -isms<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 11/18/19 5:13 AM, Prof David West
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Nick
said:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">"What
struck me about them was how many of them held the
view that reality was beyond experience: i.e., that
our experience provided clues to reality, but the
thing itself was beyond experience. I never could
convince them that that their belief in a reality
beyond experience had to be based on … experience.
So, why not be monists, and talk about organizations
of experience. Ultimately, it was their dualism that
confirmed me in my monism."</span></i><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">How
about an assertion that there is <b><u>A</u></b>
Reality beyond <b><u>"ordinary"</u></b> experience;
with "ordinary experience" being the half-dozen or so
overt sensory inputs (sight, sound, balance, touch,
taste, smell) we typically associate with experience.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>I generally accept Nunez/Lakoff's position/arguement in Where
Mathematics Comes From:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>from the Wikipedia article on this book:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p><i>Lakoff and Núñez hold that mathematics results from the
human cognitive apparatus and must therefore be understood
in cognitive terms. WMCF advocates (and includes some
examples of) a cognitive idea analysis of <a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematics"
title="Mathematics" moz-do-not-send="true">mathematics</a>
which analyzes mathematical ideas in terms of the human
experiences, metaphors, generalizations, and other
cognitive mechanisms giving rise to them. A standard
mathematical education does not develop such idea analysis
techniques because it does not pursue considerations of A)
what structures of the mind allow it to do mathematics or
B) the <a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_mathematics"
title="Philosophy of mathematics" moz-do-not-send="true">philosophy
of mathematics</a>. </i><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p>This point may well support Dave's hermeneutical position,
though Lakoff/Nunez do assume that there is such a thing as a
human body and that all humans roughly share the same
physical/sensory/cognitive apparatus.<br>
...<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">The one
cultural universal: every culture (obviously not every
individual in every culture) incorporates a belief in
the "supernatural." In all but, maybe, 2-3, cultures the
"supernatural" includes an alternative realm of
existence (pre- and/or after-life or "other planes."
The, interpretations of this universal are multiple -
pretty much one per culture/subculture.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>And where does Joseph Campbell's notion of the Monomyth come
in? Is it merely "widely found", or perhaps just "cherry
picked" by Western Anthropology?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I am reminded of the Rick Strassman's research into
entheogens, with DMT/Ayhuasca in particular. He seems to
suggest/report that it is universal that people tripping on
DMT will experience culturally specific interpretations (in
the sense of your use of the term I think) of "another plane"
and "alien beings" which could range from angels/demons
harkening from heaven/hell to multidimensional alien beings
and parallel existences.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>- Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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