<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)"><style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Consolas;
panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:#0563C1;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:#954F72;
text-decoration:underline;}
p.MsoPlainText, li.MsoPlainText, div.MsoPlainText
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Plain Text Char";
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}
p
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}
pre
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted Char";
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New";}
span.PlainTextChar
{mso-style-name:"Plain Text Char";
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Plain Text";
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}
span.HTMLPreformattedChar
{mso-style-name:"HTML Preformatted Char";
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted";
font-family:Consolas;}
span.EmailStyle22
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#1F497D;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;}
@page WordSection1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link="#0563C1" vlink="#954F72"><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>No. Indeed, your message came through \u2026 as our president would say \u2026 perfect. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>N<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Nicholas S. Thompson<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Clark University<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><a href="http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/"><span style='color:#0563C1'>http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b>From:</b> Friam [mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Steven A Smith<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, November 19, 2019 12:21 PM<br><b>To:</b> friam@redfish.com<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] post you seem to have missed from FRIAM<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p>Nick -<span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p>I'm suspect that my own habits around indentation, <i>italicization</i>, etc. are not explicit enough to make things clear enough as to who is speaking to whom. I also tend to trust/defer to my mailtool (thunderbird) which *seems* to add very limited HTML markup of included sections. I do this in deference to those here who might be using (rich?)text-only tools. I am wondering if YOUR mail tool of choice strips that?<o:p></o:p></p><p>I assume you might see both:<o:p></o:p></p><p> Indentation <tab><o:p></o:p></p><p> <i>Italics</i><o:p></o:p></p><p>and does the following inclusion of your text appear as significantly different text than my own?<o:p></o:p></p><p><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>On 11/19/19 9:39 AM, Nick Thompson wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoPlainText>Hi, Dave, <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>I had seen your post below before, but because you computer woke-folk won\u2019t use HTML, I can never tell who\u2019s talking to whom about what. And also, this business of having two computers, neither of which work, is driving me ever crazier than I usually am. I find myself typing a response on my new computer while moving the mouse connected to my old computer and wondering why nothing is happening. So I stipulate that I have contributed more than my share to the disjointedness of the conversation. Sorry for that. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>I will try and straighten things out a bit below. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>In the meantime allow me to cop to my puritanism with respect to anything that smacks of \u201cexperience enhancement\u201d. I can hear you all putting on your Trump-sincere-voice, shedding one crocodile tear each, and saying, in a chorus, \u201c<b><i>Sad!\u201d</i></b> But there it is. I am not one to be tempted by the giant roller-coaster at the fair, or by the vampire movie at the mall. To me, life is enough of a roller-coaster without introducing<i> gratuitous</i> bumps. Nor do I have a much of an interest in science fiction. I come from the Silent Generation (Remember, I am THAT old!) The sixties is the chasm across which you and I (and many of the other participants in this discussion) view one another. In my Peircean moments, I view life as a stream of experiences that I am at pains to manage. I grew up hearing about Hitler, killing camps, death and starvation of millions. I didn\u2019t have to imagine goblins; they were on the news every day. To me, a quiet life is a miraculous achievement. Anything that makes that stream of experience more difficult to manage is\u2026 well \u2026 annoying. Drug experiences, extreme experiences of any kind, do not fill me with wonder. If you take a large chunk of flint stone and bash it on an anvil it shatters into \u2026 well \u2026 <i>flints. </i>Hitting the human mind with a drug-hammer, or a starvation hammer, a near-death hammer, or even a sleep-hammer is like that. Yes, I suppose, it tells you something about the structure of the thing you are hitting, but I don\u2019t suppose, with my Puritan mindset, that it tells me ANYTHING about the Universe. Good LORD. Why would it? <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>I know that Prufrock was Ironic, but I still take some odd perverse pleasure in \u2026<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> I grow old, I grow old, I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled. \u2026<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> Do I dare to eat a peach? <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> I shall wear white flannel trousers and walk upon the beach.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> I have heard the mermaids singing each to each. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> I do not think that they will sing for me. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Sometimes I feel like your crazy uncle at Thanksgiving<b>. </b>Even though I was a little kid during WWII, I still feel like I <i>fought</i> for your sanity. And now you find joy and wisdom in madness?! I am a 50\u2019s Apollonian in a nest of 70\u2019s Dionysians.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Yes. I know. <b><i>Sad! </i></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><i> </i></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><b>Nick </b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><b> </b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><b>PS: </b>OK. It\u2019s time I read some Geertz first-hand. Assign me something. Not too much, please. N. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Nicholas S. Thompson<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Clark University<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><a href="http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/">http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/</a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Prof David West [<a href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm">mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm</a>] <br>Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2019 8:14 AM<br>To: nick thompson <a href="mailto:nickthompson@earthlink.net"><nickthompson@earthlink.net></a><br>Subject: post you seem to have missed from FRIAM<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Nick said:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'><b><i><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>"What struck me about them was how many of them held the view that reality was beyond experience: i.e., that our experience provided clues to reality, but the thing itself was beyond experience. I never could convince them that that their belief in a reality beyond experience had to be based on \u2026 experience. So, why not be monists, and talk about organizations of experience. Ultimately, it was their dualism that confirmed me in my monism."</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>How about an assertion that there is A Reality beyond "ordinary" experience; with "ordinary experience" being the half-dozen or so overt <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><b><i>[NST==>what is a covert sensory experience? <==nst] </i></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>sensory inputs (sight, sound, balance, touch, taste, smell) we typically associate with experience.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Given a different set of inputs \u2014 e.g. emotions, hallucinations, visions, dreams \u2014 must we assume that we are still experiencing the same Reality as that experienced with overt sensory inputs; or, is the door open to an alternative Reality even if Reality-A and Reality-B have significant but not total congruence? We are still experiencing, so your experiential monism is intact, but Reality is dualist/pluralist.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><b><i><span style='color:black'>[NST==>Well, to a monist there is, in your sense, no reality at all! Reality is an aspiration. Reality is what arises from the management of experience. Given our generational difference, I sometimes wonder if you don\u2019t take for granted the reality that I am fighting for. <==nst] </span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Or, suppose there are a set of inputs, of the same Reality, that are not included in the overt set (sight, taste, et. al.). Previously it was noted that the eye can detect a single photon (and we can "sense" other quantum level phenomena). You asserted that such sensory inputs would be "lost in the noise" of the functioning organism and hence are not "experienced." Is this not a case of a detectable/sensible Reality beyond experience?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>A corollary: can there be "experiences" \u2014 a set of stimulus-response pairs \u2014 not included in the overt senses, and not describable in ordinary <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><b><i>[NST==>What is extra-ordinary language? <==nst] </i></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>language? Obviously, I am talking about "mystical" experiences such as "being in the zone" or lower-case s, satori, or even upper-case s, Satori (aka enlightenment). It is important to note that these are stimulus-response events, not necessarily "experiences;" as experience, in ordinary language, necessarily implies an experience-r, and in the examples I am thinking about, there is no "I" and hence no experience-r.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>AND,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'><b><i>"By the way, Geertz is probably the locus classicus of the relativism I deplore."</i></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'><b><i> </i></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Sir! Them's fightin words!!!<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>But I forgive you, as you clearly misunderstand Geertz (one of my personal heroes). Nothing he says is "relativist." His observations and conclusions are, however, hermeneutic. Geertz merely points out a fact \u2014 there are no cross cultural universals (except one, that I will get to in just a moment), nor are there any "objective" criteria for asserting primacy or privilege of one culture over another. >From this comes an indictment of ethnocentrism as one culture stating that "obviously" our values, our ways of doing things, our worldview, our customs ... are superior to yours, correct while yours are erroneous, etc.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Hermeneuticism is NOT relativism.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>The one cultural universal: every culture (obviously not every individual in every culture) incorporates a belief in the "supernatural." In all but, maybe, 2-3, cultures the "supernatural" includes an alternative realm of existence (pre- and/or after-life or "other planes." The, interpretations of this universal are multiple - pretty much one per culture/subculture.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>davew<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif'><br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p><pre>============================================================<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>to unsubscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>archives back to 2003: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> by Dr. Strangelove<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote></div></body></html>