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<p>Nick -</p>
<p>I'm suspect that my own habits around indentation, <i>italicization</i>,
etc. are not explicit enough to make things clear enough as to
who is speaking to whom. I also tend to trust/defer to my
mailtool (thunderbird) which *seems* to add very limited HTML
markup of included sections. I do this in deference to those here
who might be using (rich?)text-only tools. I am wondering if YOUR
mail tool of choice strips that?</p>
<p>I assume you might see both:<br>
</p>
<p> Indentation <tab></p>
<p> <i>Italics</i></p>
<p>and does the following inclusion of your text appear as
significantly different text than my own?</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/19/19 9:39 AM, Nick Thompson
wrote:<br>
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<p class="MsoPlainText">Hi, Dave, <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">I had seen your post below before, but
because you computer woke-folk won’t use HTML, I can never
tell who’s talking to whom about what. And also, this
business of having two computers, neither of which work, is
driving me ever crazier than I usually am. I find myself
typing a response on my new computer while moving the mouse
connected to my old computer and wondering why nothing is
happening. So I stipulate that I have contributed more than
my share to the disjointedness of the conversation. Sorry for
that. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">I will try and straighten things out a
bit below. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">In the meantime allow me to cop to my
puritanism with respect to anything that smacks of “experience
enhancement”. I can hear you all putting on your
Trump-sincere-voice, shedding one crocodile tear each, and
saying, in a chorus, “<b><i>Sad!”</i></b> But there it is. I
am not one to be tempted by the giant roller-coaster at the
fair, or by the vampire movie at the mall. To me, life is
enough of a roller-coaster without introducing<i> gratuitous</i>
bumps. Nor do I have a much of an interest in science
fiction. I come from the Silent Generation (Remember, I am
THAT old!) The sixties is the chasm across which you and I
(and many of the other participants in this discussion) view
one another. In my Peircean moments, I view life as a stream
of experiences that I am at pains to manage. I grew up
hearing about Hitler, killing camps, death and starvation of
millions. I didn’t have to imagine goblins; they were on the
news every day. To me, a quiet life is a miraculous
achievement. Anything that makes that stream of experience
more difficult to manage is… well … annoying. Drug
experiences, extreme experiences of any kind, do not fill me
with wonder. If you take a large chunk of flint stone and
bash it on an anvil it shatters into … well … <i>flints. </i>Hitting
the human mind with a drug-hammer, or a starvation hammer, a
near-death hammer, or even a sleep-hammer is like that. Yes,
I suppose, it tells you something about the structure of the
thing you are hitting, but I don’t suppose, with my Puritan
mindset, that it tells me ANYTHING about the Universe. Good
LORD. Why would it? <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I know that Prufrock was Ironic, but I
still take some odd perverse pleasure in …<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> I grow old, I grow old, I
shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled. …<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> Do I dare to eat a peach? <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> I shall wear white flannel
trousers and walk upon the beach.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> I have heard the mermaids
singing each to each. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> I do not think that they
will sing for me. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Sometimes I feel like your crazy uncle at
Thanksgiving<b>. </b>Even though I was a little kid during
WWII, I still feel like I <i>fought</i> for your sanity. And
now you find joy and wisdom in madness?! I am a 50’s
Apollonian in a nest of 70’s Dionysians.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Yes. I know. <b><i>Sad! <o:p></o:p></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><o:p> </o:p></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Nick <o:p></o:p></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><o:p> </o:p></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>PS: </b>OK. It’s time I read some
Geertz first-hand. Assign me something. Not too much,
please. N. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Nicholas S. Thompson<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Emeritus Professor of Psychology and
Biology<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Clark University<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/">http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Prof David West [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm">mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm</a>] <br>
Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2019 8:14 AM<br>
To: nick thompson <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:nickthompson@earthlink.net"><nickthompson@earthlink.net></a><br>
Subject: post you seem to have missed from FRIAM</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Nick said:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in"><b><i><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">"What struck me about them was
how many of them held the view that reality was beyond
experience: i.e., that our experience provided clues to
reality, but the thing itself was beyond experience. I
never could convince them that that their belief in a
reality beyond experience had to be based on …
experience. So, why not be monists, and talk about
organizations of experience. Ultimately, it was their
dualism that confirmed me in my monism."<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">How about an assertion that there is A
Reality beyond "ordinary" experience; with "ordinary
experience" being the half-dozen or so overt <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><b><i>[NST==>what is a covert sensory
experience? <==nst] <o:p></o:p></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">sensory inputs (sight, sound, balance,
touch, taste, smell) we typically associate with experience.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Given a different set of inputs — e.g.
emotions, hallucinations, visions, dreams — must we assume
that we are still experiencing the same Reality as that
experienced with overt sensory inputs; or, is the door open to
an alternative Reality even if Reality-A and Reality-B have
significant but not total congruence? We are still
experiencing, so your experiential monism is intact, but
Reality is dualist/pluralist.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><b><i><span style="color:black">[NST==>Well,
to a monist there is, in your sense, no reality at all!
Reality is an aspiration. Reality is what arises from
the management of experience. Given our generational
difference, I sometimes wonder if you don’t take for
granted the reality that I am fighting for. <==nst]
</span></i></b><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Or, suppose there are a set of inputs,
of the same Reality, that are not included in the overt set
(sight, taste, et. al.). Previously it was noted that the eye
can detect a single photon (and we can "sense" other quantum
level phenomena). You asserted that such sensory inputs would
be "lost in the noise" of the functioning organism and hence
are not "experienced." Is this not a case of a
detectable/sensible Reality beyond experience?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">A corollary: can there be "experiences"
— a set of stimulus-response pairs — not included in the overt
senses, and not describable in ordinary <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><b><i>[NST==>What is extra-ordinary
language? <==nst] <o:p></o:p></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">language? Obviously, I am talking about
"mystical" experiences such as "being in the zone" or
lower-case s, satori, or even upper-case s, Satori (aka
enlightenment). It is important to note that these are
stimulus-response events, not necessarily "experiences;" as
experience, in ordinary language, necessarily implies an
experience-r, and in the examples I am thinking about, there
is no "I" and hence no experience-r.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">AND,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in"><b><i>"By the
way, Geertz is probably the locus classicus of the
relativism I deplore."<o:p></o:p></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in"><b><i><o:p> </o:p></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Sir! Them's fightin words!!!<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">But I forgive you, as you clearly
misunderstand Geertz (one of my personal heroes). Nothing he
says is "relativist." His observations and conclusions are,
however, hermeneutic. Geertz merely points out a fact — there
are no cross cultural universals (except one, that I will get
to in just a moment), nor are there any "objective" criteria
for asserting primacy or privilege of one culture over
another. From this comes an indictment of ethnocentrism as one
culture stating that "obviously" our values, our ways of doing
things, our worldview, our customs ... are superior to yours,
correct while yours are erroneous, etc.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Hermeneuticism is NOT relativism.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">The one cultural universal: every
culture (obviously not every individual in every culture)
incorporates a belief in the "supernatural." In all but,
maybe, 2-3, cultures the "supernatural" includes an
alternative realm of existence (pre- and/or after-life or
"other planes." The, interpretations of this universal are
multiple - pretty much one per culture/subculture.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">davew<o:p></o:p></p>
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