<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Of course, Heisenberg and Bohr made this point regarding the quantum world. Languages are constructed, or emerge, to operate within certain bounds.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Grant<br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Dec 10, 2019, at 12:44 AM, Prof David West <<a href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm" class="">profwest@fastmail.fm</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial;" class="">Ineffable!<br class=""></div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial;" class="">There are many things that "cannot be expressed in words."<br class=""></div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial;" class="">There are many experiences "that cannot be expressed in words."<br class=""></div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial;" class="">Perhaps the "words" simply do not exist - or exist at the moment — the vocabulary problem you mention.<br class=""></div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial;" class="">Perhaps the constructs of the language — copulas / the verb "to be" in English, for example — prevent accurate assertions, or mandate unresolvable paradox.<br class=""></div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial;" class="">Perhaps no language with appropriate expressive power is extant. (Unless Nick, in his researchers, has rediscovered the "language of the birds" that Huggin and Munnin used to converse with Odin.)<br class=""></div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial;" class="">Perhaps a 'process of investigative scrutiny' other than the one we commonly use to talk about common things is required; i.e. we simply have yet to invent the appropriate "science."<br class=""></div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial;" class="">Why do limitations in epistemology mandate exclusions from ontology?<br class=""></div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial;" class="">davew<br class=""></div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">On Mon, Dec 9, 2019, at 7:40 PM, Eric Charles wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote type="cite" id="qt" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div style="font-family: Arial;" class=""><span class="font" style="font-family: sans-serif;"><span class="size" style="font-size: 16px;">Ineffable? </span></span><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class=""><span class="font" style="font-family: sans-serif;"><span class="size" style="font-size: 16px;"></span></span><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class=""><div style="font-family: Arial;" class=""><span class="font" style="font-family: sans-serif;"><span class="size" style="font-size: 16px;">F it!</span></span><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class=""><span class="font" style="font-family: sans-serif;"><span class="size" style="font-size: 16px;"></span></span><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class=""><span class="font" style="font-family: sans-serif;"><span class="size" style="font-size: 16px;">I will try for a more thorough reply later, but the short version is that no inherently ineffable things exist, because "exist" and "real" are awkward ways we talk about the object of those concepts that will sustain the scrutiny of investigation. For that process to happen, we have to be able to talk about the thing being investigated, i.e. it must be in-principle effable. If we lack the necessary vocabulary at the moment, that's a different problem. </span></span><br class=""></div></div></div><div style="font-family: Arial;" class=""><br class=""></div><div class="qt-gmail_quote"><div class="qt-gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Mon, Dec 9, 2019, 12:03 PM <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" class="">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="qt-gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 1px; padding-left: 1ex;"><div lang="EN-US" class=""><div class="qt-m_2198746306113446487WordSection1"><p class="qt-MsoNormal">Dave,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal">Thanks for this; and thanks, Frank, for forwarding it, else I should never have seen it. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span class="size" style="font-size: 12pt;"><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span><br class=""></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="size" style="font-size: 12pt;"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span><br class=""></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="size" style="font-size: 12pt;">Well, that’s what I get for labeling my Monism. Once labeled, monisms become dualisms. Let me just say that the experiencer of an experience is simply another experience. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span><br class=""></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="size" style="font-size: 12pt;"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span><br class=""></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="size" style="font-size: 12pt;">Isn’t admitting to the ineffable throwing in the towel?<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span><br class=""></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="size" style="font-size: 12pt;"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span><br class=""></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="size" style="font-size: 12pt;">Nick<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span><br class=""></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal">Nick Thompson<u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal">Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology<u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal">Clark University<u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><a rel="noreferrer" href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com" class=""><span class="colour" style="color: rgb(5, 99, 193);">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><a rel="noreferrer" href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/" class=""><span class="colour" style="color: rgb(5, 99, 193);">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u><br class=""></p><div class=""><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div style="font-family: Arial;" class=""><b class="">From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Friam <<a rel="noreferrer" href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" class="">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Frank Wimberly<br class=""></div><div style="font-family: Arial;" class=""><b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Monday, December 9, 2019 6:20 AM<br class=""></div><div style="font-family: Arial;" class=""><b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a rel="noreferrer" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" class="">friam@redfish.com</a>><br class=""></div><div style="font-family: Arial;" class=""><b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [FRIAM] [EXT] Re: A pluralistic model of the mind?<u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u><br class=""></p><div class=""><p class="qt-MsoNormal">I think we've gotten somewhere.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><div class=""><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;">Frank<u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><div class=""><div class=""><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div style="font-family: Arial;" class="">-----------------------------------<br class=""></div><div style="font-family: Arial;" class="">Frank Wimberly<br class=""></div><div style="font-family: Arial;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="font-family: Arial;" class="">My memoir:<br class=""></div><div style="font-family: Arial;" class=""><a rel="noreferrer" href="https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly" class="">https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly</a><br class=""></div><div style="font-family: Arial;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="font-family: Arial;" class="">My scientific publications:<br class=""></div><div style="font-family: Arial;" class=""><a rel="noreferrer" href="https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2" class="">https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2</a><br class=""></div><div style="font-family: Arial;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="font-family: Arial;" class="">Phone (505) 670-9918<u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div></div></div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u><br class=""></p><div class=""><div class=""><p class="qt-MsoNormal">On Mon, Dec 9, 2019, 4:08 AM Prof David West <<a rel="noreferrer" href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm" class="">profwest@fastmail.fm</a>> wrote:<u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div><blockquote style="border-color: currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204, 204, 204); border-style: none none none solid; border-width: medium medium medium 1pt; border-image-outset: 0; border-image-repeat: stretch; border-image-slice: 100%; border-image-source: none; border-image-width: 1; padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">Nick,<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">No need to be ill at ease — I do not mean illusory in, or with, any sense/degree/intimation of dualism.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">Ultimately, either: I am more of a monist than thou. Or, you are equally a mystic as I.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">You cannot speak of Experience without explicitly or implicitly asserting an Experiencer --->> dualism. If there is an Experience "of which you cannot speak," or of which "whatever is spoken is incorrect or incomplete;" then you are as much a mystic as Lao Tzu and the Tao.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">Because your sensibilities will not allow you to admit your mysticism, I offer an alternative: you are an epistemological monist but not an ontological monist. On the latter point; I have already accused you of believing in an ontological "Thing" other than experience: a human soul or essence or spirit.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">My monism is both ontological (except for the myth that infinitely long ago, and infinitely in the future, there were two things "intelligence" and "matter") and epistemological (accepting that my epistemology is ineffable).<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">davew<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-MsoNormal">On Fri, Dec 6, 2019, at 8:49 PM,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a rel="noreferrer" href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" class="">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div><blockquote id="qt-m_2198746306113446487m_4276717390442187400qt" style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=""><div class=""><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal">Hi, David,<u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal">Thanks for channeling me so accurately. It is a talent to channel what one does not agree with so faithfully that the person channeled is satisfied. Thank you for that. <u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal">I would have only one ill-ease, about the last part of your version:<u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;"><b class=""><i class=""><span class="font" style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;"><span class="size" style="font-size: 10pt;">both equally illusory.</span></span></i></b><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><div class=""><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal">I think “illusory” is used here, in your way, not in the way I would use it, but to refer to the world that truly is but which we an never truly grasp. I.e., dualistically. For me, an illusion is just an experience that does not prove out. I arrive at my coffee house three days in a row and there is a “day old” old-fashioned plain donut available for purchase at half price. I experience that “donut at 4” is something I can count on. That turns out not to be the case because, another customer starts coming in at 3.59 and commandeering all the donuts. My experience was illusory. Or, think flips of a coin. You flip a coin 7 times heads and you come to the conclusion that the coin is biased. However, you flip it a thousand times more and its behavior over the 1007 flips is consistent with randomness. You come to the conclusion that the bias was probably an illusion. <u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal">My understanding of illusory is probabilistic and provisional. <u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal">Nick<u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal">Nick Thompson<u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal">Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology<u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal">Clark University<u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><u class=""><span class="colour" style="color: rgb(5, 99, 193);"><a rel="noreferrer" href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com" class="">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</a><a rel="noreferrer" href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/" class="">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</a></span></u><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><div class=""><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-image-outset: 0; border-image-repeat: stretch; border-image-slice: 100%; border-image-source: none; border-image-width: 1; border-color: rgb(225, 225, 225) currentcolor currentcolor; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=""><div class=""><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><b class=""><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Friam <<a rel="noreferrer" href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" class="">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Prof David West<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><b class=""><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">Sent:</span></b><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, December 6, 2019 10:16 AM<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><b class=""><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">To:</span></b><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a rel="noreferrer" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" class="">friam@redfish.com</a><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><b class=""><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">Subject:</span></b><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [FRIAM] [EXT] Re: A pluralistic model of the mind?<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span><br class=""></p></div></div></div><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><div class=""><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">I dare not really speak for Nick, but I think the essence of his position is that there is no "out there" nor is there any "in here." There is only a flow of "experience" that is sometimes "evaluated" (interpreted?) to a false distinction of in or out — both equally illusory.</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">davew</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal">On Fri, Dec 6, 2019, at 3:27 PM, John Kennison wrote:<u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div><blockquote id="qt-m_2198746306113446487m_4276717390442187400qt-qt" style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=""><div class=""><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="colour" style=""><span class="size" style="font-size: 12pt;">Hi Nick, and Eric,</span></span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="colour" style=""><span class="size" style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="colour" style=""><span class="size" style="font-size: 12pt;">I am grappling with Nick's ideas that mental states must be physical things and even are "out there" rather than "in here". What about delusions? If I think I see bear in the woods but I am mistaken, is this false perception "out there" even when the bear is not?</span></span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="colour" style=""><span class="size" style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="colour" style=""><span class="size" style="font-size: 12pt;">--John</span></span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div><div id="qt-m_2198746306113446487m_4276717390442187400qt-qt-appendonsend" class=""><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><div class="qt-MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align: center;"><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><hr width="98%" size="1" align="center" class=""></span><br class=""></div><p class="qt-MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align: center;"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div><div id="qt-m_2198746306113446487m_4276717390442187400qt-qt-divRplyFwdMsg" class=""><div class=""><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><b class=""><span class="colour" style="">From:</span></b><span class="colour" style=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Friam <<a rel="noreferrer" href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" class="">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> on behalf of Eric Charles <<a rel="noreferrer" href="mailto:eric.phillip.charles@gmail.com" class="">eric.phillip.charles@gmail.com</a>><br class=""><b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Thursday, December 5, 2019 8:41 PM<br class=""><b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a rel="noreferrer" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" class="">friam@redfish.com</a>><br class=""><b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[EXT] Re: [FRIAM] A pluralistic model of the mind?</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">Nick, </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal">Your need to complicate things is fascinating. You are a monist. You are a monist is the sense of not thinking that "mental" things and "physical" things are made of different stuffs. At that point, you can throw a new word in the mix (e.g., 'experience', 'neutral stuff'), or you can throw your hat in with one or the other side of the original division, e.g., "I am a materialist" or "I am an idealist". To that, you add the insight that that later discussion is all a bit weird, because once you have decided to be a monist it weirdly doesn't matter much what you call the stuff.That insight is in need of support, because the old dichotomy is so built in to our language and culture that the claim it doesn't matter which side you choose is very unintuitive. That is solid, and you should develop it further. <u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal">Instead, you bring up some sort of discussion about serial vs. parallel processing that has nothing to do with that topic at all, then you muddle the issues up. Whether you think of "consciousness" as "serial" or "parallel" has no bearing on the prior issue. Given that you are talking with a bunch of computationally minded people, and that you brought up Turing Machines, the first problem is that a serial system can simulate a parallel system, so while parallel buys you time savings (sometimes a little, sometimes a lot), it doesn't change what the system is capable of in any more fundamental way (assuming you are still limited to writing zeros and ones). But you don't even need that, because it just doesn't matter. Being a "monist" has nothing to do with the serial vs. parallel issue at all. There is no reason a body can't be doing many things at once. Or, you can change your level of analysis and somehow set up your definition so that there is only one thing the body is doing, but that one thing has parts. It is just a word game at that point. If I have a 5-berry pie, is it 5 different types of pie at once, or is it its own 1 flavor of pie? We can talk about the pros and cons of labeling it different ways, but it is the same thing whichever way we label it.... and... it has nothing to do with monism vs. dualism....<u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal">Admonishment over.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal">So... Say more about the monism part... That is a solid issue and you are getting somewhere with it...<u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal">It SEEMS so important a difference if one person claims that all we can never know is ideas ("You don't know 'the chair', just your idea of the chair!") and another person claims that knowing isn't ever a thing and that there is just material ("There is no 'idea' of the chair, there is only your physical body in relation to the physical world!"). It seems that they are making vastly different claims, and that they should disagree about almost everything. How is it that THAT doesn't matter? <u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal">Eric<u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><div class=""><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">-----------</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><div class=""><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">Eric P. Charles, Ph.D.</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">Department of Justice - Personnel Psychologist</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div></div><div class=""><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal">American University - Adjunct Instructor<u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div></div><div class=""><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class=""><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div></div></div><div class=""><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><div class=""><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal">On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 1:20 AM <<a rel="noreferrer" href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" class="">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div><blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-width: medium medium medium 1pt; border-image-outset: 0; border-image-repeat: stretch; border-image-slice: 100%; border-image-source: none; border-image-width: 1; border-color: currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal">Hi, everybody,<u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal">I have gotten all the communications off of nabble and concentrated them below. If you read this message in plain text, a lot of useful formatting will go away, so I encourage you to enable HTML. Or perhaps, I can fit it all up as a Word file, tomorrow.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal">. I have not had time to dig into the contents much. I am pleased that everybody took the issue straight on, and I look forward to grappling with your comments.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><b class=""><i class="">A recapitulation of the thread:</i></b><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal">First, some text from the review which Roger sent:<u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><b class=""><i class=""><span class="font" style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;"><span class="size" style="font-size: 10pt;">This is exactly as radical as it sounds. Bishop Berkeley and other idealists argued that objects are dependent on mind; Manzotti argues the reverse of this: Mind exists in objects. In The Spread Mind, Manzotti contends that we are mistaken to believe that objects “do not depend on our presence. . . . Our bodies enable processes that change the ontology of the world. Our bodies bring into existence the physical objects with which our experience is identical. We are our experience. We are not our bodies.” And later: “We are the world and the world is us—everything is physical.” This includes dreams, hallucinations, memories—all are the imagined physical objects themselves, not neural firings or mental representations (we must at one time have perceived an object to hallucinate or dream it, although it can be an unreal combination of other objects, as in the case of flying pink elephants). Manzotti impishly dubs this doctrine no-psychism. It’s idealism turned on its head, a reductio ad absurdum of scientific materialism. (If you’re confused, well, I’m not sure I understand it myself, and I read the book.)</span></span></i></b><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><b class=""><i class=""><span class="font" style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;"><span class="size" style="font-size: 10pt;">Manzotti first drew Parks’s attention during a conference at IULM University in Milan, where Parks is a professor, by bellowing “There are no images!” in response to a neuroscientist’s discussion about how the brain transforms visual stimuli into images. On Manzotti’s view, the brain does nothing of the kind. There are no pictures, only objects. “He really couldn’t believe how stupid we were all being, he said, buying into this dumb story of images in our heads.” Parks was besotted.</span></span></i></b><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><b class=""><i class=""><span class="font" style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;"><span class="size" style="font-size: 10pt;">He could as easily have said “There are no objects, only pictures!”<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></i></b> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><b class="">MY COMMENT ON THE REVIEW:</b><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal">I think this review may be a wonderful example of what happens when a (Romantic) dualist tries to explain monism to dualists. <u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal">What nobody in this discussion seems to understand is that one can have objects OR images BUT NOT BOTH. The lunacy begins when people imagine that there are things outside of experience. Or experience outside of things… really it doesn’t matter: they are both equally crazy. The fact is, everything we know comes in over one channel – I call it experience – and from that channel every form of experience is derived. So, images and objects are not different sorts of stuff, they are arrangements of the same stuff. And once you have agreed that there is only one kind of stuff, it doesn’t make a damn bit of difference what you call it, “images” or “objects”. <u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal">Take phantom limb, for instance. I feel like I have a leg but when I put my weight on it I fall down. Now the dualist will artificially divide experience into the feeling that I have a leg (i.e., I start to put my weight on it) and the experience of falling down, and call one the ineffable experience the other the brute reality. But this is an artificial division. Not falling down when you put your weight on your leg is as much part of the experience of having a leg as expecting that you wont fall down. <u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal">This is where I always imagine that glen and I must ultimately find agreement. He has to concede that he is a monist in that everything we experience is, well, experience. I have to concede that I am a pluralist, in that experience can be be organized in a zillion different forms depending on how, and the degree to which, it proves out Hypothesis testing is as much a part of experience as hypothesis formation.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal">Now, there is a a hidden assumption in my monism which I would think you computer folks would be all over me about. I am thinking of consciousness as serial, rather than parallel. Where do I stand to assert that what ever else can be said about experience, it comes down to a series of single, instantaneous points from which all the varieties and forms of experience – objects and fantasies, etc. – are constructed. This is where ProfDave has me, because there is no more reason to believe on the basis of looking at the brain that it has a single point of convergence, a choke point in its processing, than to believe the same of the kidneys. Kidneys can make urine and clean the blood at the same time. This is why I wish I understood the Turing Model better, because I intuit that the computers we use are based on just this seriel fallacy. Now, I suppose behavior provides something like a choke point. We either walk to the supermarket or we drive. But we may do a dozen different things on our way to the supermarket, whether or not we walk and drive. We can listen to a pod cast, we can plan our summer vacation, we can muse about which tuxedo we will wear for our Nobel Address. And if we don’t, as I suspect Frank and Bruce will want us to, artificially separate these musements from the circumstances that occasion them and the actions they ultimately occasion, we will see that the myth of the choke point (the fallacy of the turing machine model?) is contradicted by the fact that we can do and do do many things at once all the time.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><b class="">RESPONSES TO MY COMMENTS</b>:<u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><b class=""><i class="">Glen’s First</i></b><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal">But why is serialization different from any other monist tendency? Serialization is a reduction to the uni-dimensional *sequence*, whereas parallel implies pluralism, anything > 1 dimension. It would be inconsistent of you to allow for parallelism and retain your monism. So, to me, you're better off sticking with a sequential conception.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal">And don't forget, as we've discussed before, any output a parallel machine can produce can be "simulated" by a sequential machine. So, again, monism is moot. Yes, it may well be True in some metaphysical sense. But if it walks like a pluralist and quacks like a pluralist ... well, then it's a pluralist.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal">Unification is only useful in so far as it *facilitates* multiplication, i.e. demonstrates constructively how we get many things from few things. If you can't show your work, then you don't understand the problem (or you haven't read the instructions 8^).<u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><b class=""><i class=""><span class="colour" style="">Dave West’s Comment:</span></i></b><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="colour" style=""> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="colour" style="">Nick, I read your Old New Realist paper, but to get a grip on it I must read some Tolman and Holt - or at least it appears so. However, I have come to one conclusion so far: that in your academic persona you are a committed experience monist, but in your public/political persona you are an irredemptive dualist, believing that humans have a soul/spirit/essence apart from mere experience. (I know, how dare I cast such an aspersion?)</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="colour" style=""> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="colour" style="">Other things. I will not attempt to explain the Turing Model, others have the technical expertise to do so, but I will speak a bit about the Turing Metaphor.</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="colour" style=""> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="colour" style="">Metaphorically, a Turing machine is a device with three elements: a read/write head, a set of instructions "in memory," and an infinite tape divided into cells with each cell containing a 1 or 0.</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="colour" style=""> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="colour" style="">A cell of the tape is available to the read/write head and, depending on the instructions in memory, will read or write (or both in sequence) and advance or retire the tape for 1 to n positions.</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="colour" style=""> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="colour" style="">The Turing machine "computes" the tape and, simultaneously, the tape "instructs" (programs) the computer (read/write head plus tape advance-retire mechanism).</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="colour" style=""> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="colour" style="">The "instructions in memory" are just sequences of the same "stuff" — ones and zeros — as the "stuff" on the tape.</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="colour" style=""> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="colour" style="">Subsequent to some "bootstrap" set of instructions (you have no interest in "end cases" so I will not pursue), the "instructions in memory" can originate on the tape, i.e. the tape contains both "program" and "data." As the "instructions on tape" "move" to "instructions in memory," the "instructions in memory" can become arbitrarily complicated.</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="colour" style=""> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="colour" style="">So far, nothing that contradicts your "experience monism."</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="colour" style=""> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="colour" style="">A favorite science fiction meme: once enough ones and zeros have moved from the tape into "memory" the Turing Machine "wakes up" becomes conscious. Instant dualism, but without much reason as mere "location" changes nothing about the "stuff" which is still ones and zeros. (one "stuff," two values)</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="colour" style=""> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="colour" style="">Because the tape is infinite in length, it matters not that it is "serial" because any parallel computational experience can be replicated serially just takes longer.</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="colour" style=""> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="colour" style="">Still nothing to interfere with your experience monism. The interesting questions might be:</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="colour" style=""> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="colour" style="">1- Is each individual human being a separate (but equal) instantiation of a Turing Machine consuming a separate (but equal) infinite tape. If yes, then the door seems to be opened for "private" experience/consciousness.</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="colour" style=""> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="colour" style="">2- each human is a separate Turing Machine, but all consume the "same" infinite tape. "Same" meaning mostly identical, but with some allowance for perspective (slight variation in which portions of the tape are consumed when??). I believe that this would be your preferred interpretation as it might allow some kind of dialog among Turing machines as each one "wrote" to the infinite tape that all were consuming and, perhaps, somehow, thereby lead to some kind of "consensus computation."</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="colour" style=""> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="colour" style="">3- there is but One Turing Machine, co-extensive with the Universe and One infinite tape, also co-extensive with the Universe and therefore the Universe is constantly "computing" itself. (Writing to the tape equals popping quantum quiffs, i.e. collapsing wave functions by observing.)</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="colour" style=""> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="colour" style="">I am pretty certain that option three is the only one possible for one committed to both ontological and epistemological monism. Ouroboros Rules!!</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="colour" style=""> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><b class=""><i class=""><span class="colour" style="">Glen’s Second:</span></i></b><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal">Well, I did reply, as did Dave. If you're ever wondering whether someone replied, you might check the archive at:<u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><a rel="noreferrer" href="https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ffriam.471366.n2.nabble.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cjkennison%40clarku.edu%7Cd797357f28854a68954e08d779ed8593%7Cb5b2263d68aa453eb972aa1421410f80%7C1%7C0%7C637111933386669699&sdata=I3i4o%2FUwNgskuqC9FZm%2FJ7ih8ktHpk7XmBUVU2wsO8M%3D&reserved=0" class=""><span class="colour" style="color: windowtext;">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</span></a><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="colour" style=""> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal">Dave's was rather interesting w.r.t. Turing machines. Mine was more flippant. But to continue mine, your discussion of serial attention or behavior hearkens back to our prior discussions of quantum computing. Parallelism vs. serial(ism? ... sequentialism?) can be monified/unified by considering a 2 dimentional space of "space" vs time. In the ideal, even things at, say, space = 1 billion can operate that the same *time* as things at space = 1. Similarly, space at time = 1 billion can be at the same position as time = 1. But reality doesn't work that way. And quantum computing demonstrates this kinda-sorta painfully. But traditional distributed computing demonstrates it, too. Parallel computations across large spaces run into inter-process communication bottlenecks. I.e. sure, we can have 10 computers compute the same thing with different inputs and fuse the outputs. But we can't do the same thing with 1k computers without having "bus" or "backbone" bandwidth problems.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal">This sort of thing seems pragmatically clear when you talk about your issues handling "serial consciousness". And, at risk of conflating 2 unrelated weird things (quantum with consciousness) for no good reason, there's a *coherence* to the parallel processing that goes on in quantum computing that kinda-sorta feels like your reduction to a serial attention/behavior in parsing consciousness. A loss of that coherence results in separate things, whereas a retention of the coherence maintains your "monism". But, in the end, it's all about the orthogonality between space and time and the *scales* of space and time wherein such orthogonality breaks down.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal">I hope that's clear. I'm a bit occupied with debugging an uncooperative simulation at the moment.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal">============================================================<u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal">FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal">Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a rel="noreferrer" 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class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">to unsubscribe<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a rel="noreferrer" 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class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal">FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal">Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College<u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal">to unsubscribe<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a rel="noreferrer" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" class="">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal">archives back to 2003:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a rel="noreferrer" href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" class="">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal">FRIAM-COMIC<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a rel="noreferrer" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" class="">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>by Dr. Strangelove<u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div></blockquote><div class=""><p class="qt-m_2198746306113446487m4276717390442187400qt-msonormal"><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div></div><div class=""><p class="qt-MsoNormal">============================================================<u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-MsoNormal">FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-MsoNormal">Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College<u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-MsoNormal">to unsubscribe<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a rel="noreferrer" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" class="">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-MsoNormal">archives back to 2003:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a rel="noreferrer" href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" class="">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-MsoNormal">FRIAM-COMIC<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a rel="noreferrer" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" class="">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>by Dr. Strangelove<u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u><br class=""></p></div></blockquote><div class=""><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span class="font" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span><br class=""></p></div></div><div class=""><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div style="font-family: Arial;" class="">============================================================<br class=""></div><div style="font-family: Arial;" class="">FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br class=""></div><div style="font-family: Arial;" class="">Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College<br class=""></div><div style="font-family: Arial;" class="">to unsubscribe<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a rel="noreferrer" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" class="">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br class=""></div><div style="font-family: Arial;" class="">archives back to 2003:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a rel="noreferrer" href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" class="">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br class=""></div><div style="font-family: Arial;" class="">FRIAM-COMIC<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a rel="noreferrer" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" class="">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>by Dr. Strangelove<u class=""></u><u class=""></u><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></blockquote></div></div></div><div style="font-family: Arial;" class="">============================================================<br class=""></div><div style="font-family: Arial;" class="">FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br class=""></div><div style="font-family: Arial;" class="">Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College<br class=""></div><div style="font-family: Arial;" class="">to unsubscribe<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a rel="noreferrer noreferrer" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" class="">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br class=""></div><div style="font-family: Arial;" class="">archives back to 2003:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a rel="noreferrer noreferrer" href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" class="">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br class=""></div><div style="font-family: Arial;" class="">FRIAM-COMIC<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a rel="noreferrer noreferrer" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" class="">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>by Dr. Strangelove<br class=""></div></blockquote></div><div class="">============================================================<br class=""></div><div class="">FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br class=""></div><div class="">Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College<br class=""></div><div class="">to unsubscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" class="">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br class=""></div><div class="">archives back to 2003: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" class="">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br class=""></div><div class="">FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" class="">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> by Dr. Strangelove<br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div></blockquote><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial;" class=""><br class=""></div><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">============================================================</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">to unsubscribe<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">archives back to 2003:<span 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text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">FRIAM-COMIC<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>by Dr. Strangelove</span></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></body></html>