<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Hi Nick,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">There probably are many such studies that people on this list will know of from deeper traditions in Computer Science, but the one I happen to know about is solo work by David Ackley of UNM. He did a study of the replacement statistics of C libraries in open-source software, explicitly looking for how the causal dependencies in an evolving system, not master-planned, but constantly sieved for internal consistency, would lead to punctuated equilibrium and landslide dynamics as changes accumulated.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I don’t know how much of this Dave published; I know of it through a few public presentations he made at SFI events. Perhaps between 10 and 14 years ago? Could be that I am off, and that it is in the 5-year interval earlier than that.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Best,</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Eric</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Dec 26, 2019, at 11:53 AM, <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" class="">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>> <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" class="">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Has anybody written for us defrocked English majors an account of the evolution of software. It must be subject to the same klugy processes that organismic evolution is but it also must be different because, with software evolution you can, SOMETIMES, go back to the beginning and start again. Wildly Naïve Question: If one “sequenced” today’s Windows, how many DOS “genes” would one find? I note, for instance, that still, after 30 years, in order to identify New Mexico as one’s state, to most websites, one still has to scroll down a list of states, and last week, I ran into a list of countries in which US was not the first item. Just like the good old days. I assume that developers just keep taking that old piece of crap off the shelf and sticking it into their programs. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Nick<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Nicholas Thompson<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Clark University<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(5, 99, 193);" class="">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(5, 99, 193);" class="">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class="">From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Frank Wimberly<br class=""><b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Thursday, December 26, 2019 8:44 AM<br class=""><b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">friam@redfish.com</a>><br class=""><b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><br class=""><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(60, 64, 67); background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class="">June 2019) (Learn how and when to remove this template message). 5ESS used in a mobile telephone network. The 5ESS Switching System is a Class 5 telephone electronic switching system developed by ...</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">-----------------------------------<br class="">Frank Wimberly<br class=""><br class="">My memoir:<br class=""><a href="https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly</a><br class=""><br class="">My scientific publications:<br class=""><a href="https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2</a><br class=""><br class="">Phone (505) 670-9918<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 8:36 AM Marcus Daniels <<a href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;" class="" type="cite"><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Frank writes:<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">“This was the telephone network in question.“<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">With the mobile carriers and VOIP, I wonder how much of that code is still used? I once worked for a small company that wrote software to do billing for long distance telephone carriers. I was amazed by the seemingly arbitrary complexity. Complex at a policy and inter-organizational level, not just the software.<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Marcus<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 12pt;" class="">From:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span style="font-size: 12pt;" class="">Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> on behalf of Frank Wimberly <<a href="mailto:wimberly3@gmail.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">wimberly3@gmail.com</a>><br class=""><b class="">Reply-To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">friam@redfish.com</a>><br class=""><b class="">Date:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Thursday, December 26, 2019 at 5:39 AM<br class=""><b class="">To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">friam@redfish.com</a>><br class=""><b class="">Subject:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">At Bell Labs we sure didn't pay anyone by LOC. We also had code reviews and software tools to enforce standards and very high pay. With a brand new PhD I made more than all but the 3 most senior members of the CS faculty at Pitt where I was a grad student. This was the telephone network in question.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Despite the high pay I disliked software administration methodology. The disagreements between the software tool developers (version control, integration of subsystems, compilers, etc) and the implementors of the applications, such as call processing, were epic. Recall that Bell Labs invented C and Unix. After 18 months I returned to Pittsburgh to work at Carnegie Mellon in Robotics for two thirds the salary.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Number 5 ESS was first deployed in March 1982, 4 years after work began. I suspect that it didn't have 200 million lines of code then, but close to it. Maybe Dave doesn't consider it an IT project but many of the software tools that were developed were included in later Unix releases, I believe.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">It's going to be a beautiful day in Santa Fe.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Frank<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">-----------------------------------<br class="">Frank Wimberly<br class=""><br class="">My memoir:<br class=""><a href="https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly</a><br class=""><br class="">My scientific publications:<br class=""><a href="https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2</a><br class=""><br class="">Phone (505) 670-9918<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 1:28 AM Gary Schiltz <<a href="mailto:gary@naturesvisualarts.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">gary@naturesvisualarts.com</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class="" type="cite"><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Spot on. <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">On Thu, Dec 26, 2019 at 2:29 AM Marcus Daniels <<a href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class="" type="cite"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Most programmers won't struggle to rationalize or improve code written by other people. The problem is that people are selfish. They think that their 10K LOC problem is beautiful and nimble, but that 1M LOC was once that too. It's the behavior of teenagers.<br class=""><br class="">On 12/25/19, 10:47 PM, "Friam on behalf of Russell Standish" <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>on behalf of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:lists@hpcoders.com.au" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">lists@hpcoders.com.au</a>> wrote:<br class=""><br class=""> It's all about the LOC! Actually, I kind of agree - having worked on<br class=""> some MegaLOC codebases that functionally seemed to be no more complex<br class=""> than a 10KLOC project I'm involved in, the 10KLOC project is much more<br class=""> nimble - compile times are far less, making changes to the code easier<br class=""> and bugs less troublesome to winkle out.<br class=""><br class=""> I've also refactored or rewritten pieces of code to slash the LOC by a<br class=""> factor of 3 or more for that particular section (eg 3KLOC -> 1KLOC) -<br class=""> but usually when bugs and problems kept on cropping up in that<br class=""> section.<br class=""><br class=""> Even though the LOC is an entirely bogus measurement - if you paid a<br class=""> programmer by LOC, you'd get boilerplate and crappy comments.<br class=""><br class=""> --<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><br class=""> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------<br class=""> Dr Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile)<br class=""> Principal, High Performance Coders<br class=""> Visiting Senior Research Fellow <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:hpcoder@hpcoders.com.au" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">hpcoder@hpcoders.com.au</a><br class=""> Economics, Kingston University <a href="http://www.hpcoders.com.au/" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://www.hpcoders.com.au</a><br class=""> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------<br class=""><br class=""> ============================================================<br class=""> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br class=""> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College<br class=""> to unsubscribe<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br class=""> archives back to 2003:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br class=""> FRIAM-COMIC<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>by Dr. Strangelove<br class=""><br class=""><br class="">============================================================<br class="">FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br class="">Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College<br class="">to unsubscribe<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br class="">archives back to 2003:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/FRIAM-COMIC" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/<br class="">FRIAM-COMIC</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>by Dr. Strangelove<o:p class=""></o:p></div></blockquote></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">============================================================<br class="">FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br class="">Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College<br class="">to unsubscribe<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br class="">archives back to 2003:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br class="">FRIAM-COMIC<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>by Dr. Strangelove<o:p class=""></o:p></div></blockquote></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">============================================================<br class="">FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br class="">Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College<br class="">to unsubscribe<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br class="">archives back to 2003:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br class="">FRIAM-COMIC<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>by Dr. Strangelove<o:p class=""></o:p></div></blockquote></div></div><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">============================================================</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">to unsubscribe<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">archives back to 2003:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">FRIAM-COMIC<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>by Dr. Strangelove</span></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></body></html>