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<p>I believe that Bruce (if you mean Sherwood) went AWOL from this
list, expatriating to WedTech when it was formed (5 or more years
ago?), along with a few others. I heard rumors of a contingent
getting overly tired of our endless philosophical maunderings
here, in favor of a more "actionable" set of discussions, whether
it be CS/Tech details or "good places to eat/plumb/roof/get-drunk
in Santa Fe", etc. I try to keep my own endless blather on
esoteric topics on this list rather than our sister WedTech, but
am not terribly disciplined about such things. I could be wrong,
Bruce (and others I assume expatriated) might well be lurking
here... <br>
</p>
<p>PolyBores R' US!<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAA5dAfqR_mPVEwXm8edxBMsXftQYtcX01FOj7gqVMMtqCaATSw@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="auto">Bruce, do you receive this list?<br>
<br>
<div data-smartmail="gmail_signature">-----------------------------------<br>
Frank Wimberly<br>
<br>
My memoir:<br>
<a href="https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly</a><br>
<br>
My scientific publications:<br>
<a href="https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2</a><br>
<br>
Phone (505) 670-9918</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Dec 30, 2019, 2:04 PM
Roger Critchlow <<a href="mailto:rec@elf.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">rec@elf.org</a>> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">Okay, resurrecting this four plus year old
discussion because it matched a search for vagus.
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a
href="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5807379/#B20"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5807379/#B20</a> reports
that electrical stimulation of the outer ear can stimulate
the vagus nerve and has positive results for treating
depression. It's hitting a spot that acupuncture uses to
treat depression.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-- rec --</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Aug 13, 2015 at
11:22 AM Nick Thompson <<a
href="mailto:nickthompson@earthlink.net" target="_blank"
rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">nickthompson@earthlink.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="white" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(153,51,102)">Steve,
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(153,51,102)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(153,51,102)">Thank
you for not chastising me, as I surely deserved.
I want to take this opportunity to renew my
apology to the list. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(153,51,102)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(153,51,102)">If
you asked me to think deeply, I would say that
boredom is actually one of those things that is in
the eye of the beholder. A person who is bored by
a topic is just a person without the resources or
energy to find what is interesting about it. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(153,51,102)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(153,51,102)">Obviously
I, the pot, who has been known the regale this
list with commentary on Elevated Mixed Layers,
should not be calling any pots black. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(153,51,102)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(153,51,102)">Thanks,
Steve, as always, for your good will. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(153,51,102)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(153,51,102)">Nick
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(153,51,102)"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(153,51,102)">Nicholas
S. Thompson</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(153,51,102)">Emeritus
Professor of Psychology and Biology</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(153,51,102)">Clark
University</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(153,51,102)"><a
href="http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:rgb(5,99,193)">http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/</span></a></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(153,51,102)"> </span></p>
<div>
<div
style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt
solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:windowtext">
Friam [mailto:<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Smith<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, August 11, 2015 11:36 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied
Complexity Coffee Group <<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [FRIAM] A PolyMath by any
other name...</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nick!<br>
<br>
I'm surprised *anything* bores the living crap out
of you! I hear tell of you staring for hours at
water swirling down a drain, considering the
philosophical and psychological implications of
such, and even more hours listening to the
squawks of Ravens!<br>
<br>
That said, I have to say that Marcus' and Glen's
conversation here was far enough above my head
that I can't imagine finding the time to noodle
out enough of the reserved lexicon to do more than
gape at it awkwardly. <br>
<br>
I have a good friend who is a former
AstroPhysicist who has reinvented himself a few
times as a High Performance Simulation Scientist,
then Virtual Reality Researcher, then Nueroscience
Researcher. He is definitely a PolyBore to anyone
without experience or interest in those fields,
but the hoot of it all is that one of his best and
oldest collaborators has stuck with "Applied Math"
for 50 years and he calls HIM a "MathHole"... they
are finishing up a multi-year book project on
their theory of Neural Function based in Category
Theory. I suspect even people who Neurophysiology
and Category Theory find them Polybores!<br>
<br>
I do like the duality of PolyMath/PolyBore... we
might have more than a few such creatures here on
this list! <br>
<br>
- Steve</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Hi
Owen, </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">How’s
your summer. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">I
note that not only can glen and company
participate in a conversation with me that bores
the living crap out of you, but they can also
participate in a conversation with you that
bores the living crap out of me. But I am not
threatening to pick up my marbles and go home.
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">I
think it’s in the nature of things. They are
multitalented bores. Polybores, we might call
them. I guess being a polybore is the other
side of being a polymath. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Nick
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Nicholas
S. Thompson</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Emeritus
Professor of Psychology and Biology</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Clark
University</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(5,99,193)"><a
href="http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> Friam [<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Owen Densmore<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, August 11, 2015 7:41 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
Coffee Group <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"><friam@redfish.com></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Re:
unikernels?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Thanks!
Fascinating.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> --
Owen</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at
4:37 PM, Parks, Raymond <<a
href="mailto:rcparks@sandia.gov"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">rcparks@sandia.gov</a>>
wrote:</p>
<blockquote
style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in
6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> The original
articles/blogs are from the U of Cambridge
Xen folks and a somewhat buzzword lovin'
sysadmin. The current trend in using
someone else's computer (SEC, more
commonly called cloud) is LInux containers
and docker. The articles predict that the
future is unikernels. A unikernel is
application specific, like containers, but
in the form of a monolithic VM that
includes the specific application and
necessary kernel services for that app.
At least two of the current unikernel
projects use functional languages - OCaml
and Haskell. The Xen model is for a
developer to specify the kernel services
they need, develop the application code,
develop the configuration code, and the
whole thing gets turned into a monolithic
VM that runs in the Xen hypervisor. In
theory, this makes for greater efficiency
and less chance of the tail wagging the
dog. By that latter, I mean that one of
the major issues in securing computer
systems of systems is that one gets all of
a system one includes (i.e DNS Bind) even
though one uses one small feature. That
means all of the vulnerabilities as well
as all the features that are not used.</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> As I said in a
previous post, this is a reinvention
(for hypervisors) of IBM VM and CSM -
the latter being a minimalist kernel
with, usually, a single application.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> The downside of
monolithic VMs is that any change
requires a complete rebuild of the VM -
even minor configuration changes that
are the equivalent of environment
variables. In a SEC environment, for
example, adding a static or CDN to the
list of sources for a web server will
require a rebuild. Alternatively, of
course, one could simply allow the
web-server unikernel to invoke scripts
from any web-site recursively - but then
an attacker simply inserts an
advertisement that invokes malware and
we're no better off than before.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The idea of
unikernels is not bad nor is it new -
but the benefits will probably not be as
great as the current promises. The UX
will not be different for the end-user
although it might be somewhat better for
the content provider.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> It's not clear to
me that the visionaries have thought
about this outside of the WWW. For
example, I recently read an article
about how NetFlix worked hard to be able
to provide streaming video with SSL
encryption. They started with their
standard server and added SSL - the
performance hit made that impractical.
Eventually, they found a configuration
of VMs and infrastructure that made the
performance hit acceptable. A unikernel
that only served SSL-encrypted video
would be more efficient than their
current VMs running a general-purpose OS
plus video streaming software. But
configuration changes (newly added
caching locations, links that are down,
et cetera) would be the bane of a
unikernel NetFlix. Each time BGP
reports a change, either the video
streaming unikernel would need to be
rebuilt or there would need to be
another layer of unikernel that
dispatches requests to the video
streaming unikernel VMs. But that
dispatcher would either need to be
reconfigured or there would need to be
another unikernel that tracks network
connectivity changes and informs the
dispatcher - and now we still have
configuration changes and a complex
system of unikernels that exist to make
it possible.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> The Internet is a
dynamic system that constantly changes -
and any system that uses the Internet
needs to adapt to constant change. The
two ways to do that with unikernels are
to have the meta on meta layers I
imagine in the previous paragraph or to
change the VM unikernels on the fly so
the user will eventually get directed to
a correctly configured unikernel. That
latter means there will be performance
hits - how bad those will be is TBD.</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:13.5pt"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">Ray Parks<br>
Consilient Heuristician/IDART
Old-Timer<br>
V: <a href="tel:505-844-4024"
target="_blank"
rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">505-844-4024</a>
M: <a href="tel:505-238-9359"
target="_blank"
rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">505-238-9359</a>
P: <a href="tel:505-951-6084"
target="_blank"
rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">505-951-6084</a></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Aug 11,
2015, at 3:25 PM, Owen
Densmore wrote:</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
</p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">I'm
so outta this
conversation!</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Could
one of us give a brief
explanation
of unikernels and the
related tech being
discussed?</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue,
Aug 11, 2015 at 2:49 PM,
glen ep ropella <<a
href="mailto:gepr@tempusdictum.com"
target="_blank"
rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">gepr@tempusdictum.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
<blockquote
style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt
solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in
0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in
5pt 4.8pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
OK. But what I'm still
missing is this: if
unikernels are more
domain- and/or
task-specific, then the
dev environment will
branch, perhaps quite a
bit. I.e. one dev
environment for many
deployables. We end up
with not just the
original (false?)
dichotomy between config
and compiled, but
meta-config and,
perhaps, meta-compiled.
And that may even have
multiple layers,
meta-meta.<br>
<br>
So, while I agree pwning
the devop role allows
the attacker to infect
the deployables, the
attacks have to be
sophisticated enough to
survive that branching
to eventually achieve
the attacker's
objective. I.e.
"closeness" in terms of
automation doesn't
necessarily mean
"closeness" in terms of
total cost of attack.<br>
<br>
It just seems that the
more objective-specific
the deployable(s), the
less likely a hacked
devops process will give
the desired result. I'd
expect a lot more failed
integration/deployment
attempts if my devops
process was modified.<br>
<br>
But this is all too
abstract, of course.
The devil is in the
particulars.<br>
<br>
<br>
On 08/11/2015 01:13 PM,
Parks, Raymond wrote:</p>
<blockquote
style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt
solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in
0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt
0in 5pt 4.8pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">
I would expect the
dev environment to be
closer if not actually
in the same
hypervisor. It's
almost like the
web-site we once
attacked by using the
java compiler on the
web-site's computer
sytem to modify the
code in the web-site.
Right now, with
devops, the dev
environment is
probably not in the
cloud/hypervisor.
And, for unikernels
that may also be
true. But to deploy
quickly in both devops
and unikernel, there
has to be a direct
channel from dev to
cloud.<br>
<br>
In more traditional
environments, there's
a dev server in a
separate space, a
testing server in its
own environment
(sometimes shared with
production but not
touching production
data), and a
production server.
While traditional
environments don't
always follow the
process well, in
theory the flow is
developers develop on
a development network
with the dev server,
roll their system into
the testing server
which runs alongside
the production server
with a copy of the
production data and
processing real or
test transactions, and
finally install the
tested version on the
production server.
From my standpoint,
that means I can
attack the production
server directly or the
development server on
a separate network.
There has to be
connectivity, but it's
likely to be filtered,
if only to prevent the
development server
from affecting the
production
environment.<br>
<br>
In devops and in
future unikernel
systems, the pace of
change is, of
necessity, much faster
and the three roles
are collapsed into one
VM. The VM image is
modified in place,
given a new name so
that rollback is
possible, and the
management software is
told to use the new
image instead of the
old.<br>
<br>
One of the
principles of
cyberwarfare (as
formulated in our
paper of that name) is
that some entity,
somewhere, has the
privileges to do
whatever the attacker
wants to do and the
attacker's goal is to
become that entity.
In the case of devops
and unikernel, that
entity is the
developer(s) who
make(s) the changes to
the VM. In
traditional
environments, the
attacker might need to
assume the privileges
of several entities.</p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">--
<br>
glen ep ropella -- <a
href="tel:971-255-2847" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">971-255-2847</a><br>
<br>
============================================================<br>
FRIAM Applied
Complexity Group
listserv<br>
Meets Fridays
9a-11:30 at cafe at
St. John's College<br>
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target="_blank"
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</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">============================================================<br>
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group
listserv<br>
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe
at St. John's College<br>
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href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"
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<pre>This body part will be downloaded on demand.</pre>
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FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College<br>
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College<br>
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by Dr. Strangelove<br>
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a>
archives back to 2003: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a>
FRIAM-COMIC <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> by Dr. Strangelove
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