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<p>Oh Nick!</p>
<p> Let me "chastise" you again <grin>. This was so far from
trash (your original observation, my "chastisement", and your
polite but unnecessary "apology"). I was, of course,
friendly-teasing you about your use of the term "bored" while
trying to acknowledge that PolyBores abound (esp. on this list)
and "boredom" is very much in the eye of the bored-beholder. <br>
</p>
<p>This list/meetup is going on 15-18 years old now... I'm too
lazy/skeered to go look at the archives... and I don't know when I
joined the list (or made my first meetup)... I think it was before
I took a year's sabbatical in Berzerkely 2005/2006 as I think I
remember making a "meetup" at St. Johns during a (re)visit to LANL
during that year. I have enjoyed watching the evolution of
various character's characters on this list, including your
own... I think we met at that meetup but I didn't get to know
you much at all until SfX days when you were noodling a lot about
noodling and had (recently) written the MOTH paper with
Guerin/Densmore... <br>
</p>
<p>I am attracted to PolyBores, because/in-spite of their endless
prattling on various pet topics... the signal-noise ratio always
seems low at first, but with enough listening (attentive as well
as background) I eventually begin to learn the language of such
individuals and can begin to at least speak a pidgin of sorts with
them, or adopt the pidgin/creole I hear them speaking with another
who I might be closer in spirit/language to.</p>
<p>I have off-list engagements with several from this list, some in
person, others online, some professional, others personal and
while those engagements have a much higher signal-noise ratio
(because focused on mutually interesting topics and including
specific attempts to meet halfway), the conversations here which I
might not fully be able to follow (over my head, beyond my
patience, outside my ken, etc) often "soften me up" for
important/interesting conversations later on or in private. We
are on a good day, a "rich, living batch", a PolySpecies symbiotic
colony of PolyMaths/PolyBores methinks. <br>
</p>
<p>I definitely hear you converging on more understanding or at
least more shared language with others here... and your tireless
pursuit of many topics Pearcian and otherwise, have provided both
helpful "convergence" and "divergence" in the sense of
annealing.. <br>
</p>
<p>It was a (mild) shock for me to hear my own "voice" here 4+ years
old, but it was a reminder that we've been rattling on about the
same things for years now!</p>
<p>Which reminds me of one of my favorite "They Might Be Giants"
song-lyrics:</p>
<p><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://greatsong.net/PAROLES-THEY-MIGHT-BE-GIANTS,LUCKY-BALL-CHAIN,335311.html">https://greatsong.net/PAROLES-THEY-MIGHT-BE-GIANTS,LUCKY-BALL-CHAIN,335311.html</a><br>
</p>
<blockquote>
<p><i><font color="000000">I lost my lucky ball and chain</font></i><i><br>
</i><i>Now she's four years gone</i><i><br>
</i><i>Just five feet tall and sick of me</i><i><br>
</i><i>And all my rattling on</i></p>
<p><i>...</i></p>
</blockquote>
<p><i> I was young and foolish then,</i></p>
<p><i> I am old and foolish now...</i></p>
<p><i> ..</i></p>
<p>Carry On!</p>
<p> - STeve<i><br>
</i></p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 12/30/19 2:51 PM,
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:022901d5bf5b$5d169d70$1743d850$@gmail.com">
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal">OUCH!<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The person who said the internet is forever
sure knew a thing.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Why we need to resurrect these posts, in
particular, is unclear to me. Suffice it to say, I cannot
recreate the context in which I would say such nasty things so
<i>nastily. </i>But the evidence that I did is
overwhelming. So. All I can do is apologize again. I have
learned so much over the years from talking with glen and
marcus. Much of what they talk about is still foreign to me,
but in the last year I feel I am understanding more, and would
hate to have that channel gummed up by digging up this trash.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">But that is the consequence of having said
stupid things; one is thereafter and forever dependent upon
the grace and maturity of others. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nick <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nicholas Thompson<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Emeritus Professor of Ethology and
Psychology<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Clark University<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#0563C1">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#0563C1">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Roger
Critchlow<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 30, 2019 2:04 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"><friam@redfish.com></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] A PolyMath by any other name...<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Okay, resurrecting this four plus year
old discussion because it matched a search for vagus.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5807379/#B20"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5807379/#B20</a> reports
that electrical stimulation of the outer ear can stimulate
the vagus nerve and has positive results for treating
depression. It's hitting a spot that acupuncture uses to
treat depression.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-- rec --<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Aug 13, 2015 at 11:22 AM Nick
Thompson <<a href="mailto:nickthompson@earthlink.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">nickthompson@earthlink.net</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#993366">Steve, </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#993366"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#993366">Thank you for not chastising
me, as I surely deserved. I want to take this
opportunity to renew my apology to the list. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#993366"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#993366">If you asked me to think
deeply, I would say that boredom is actually one of
those things that is in the eye of the beholder. A
person who is bored by a topic is just a person
without the resources or energy to find what is
interesting about it. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#993366"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#993366">Obviously I, the pot, who has
been known the regale this list with commentary on
Elevated Mixed Layers, should not be calling any
pots black. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#993366"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#993366">Thanks, Steve, as always, for
your good will. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#993366"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#993366">Nick </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#993366"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#993366">Nicholas S. Thompson</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#993366">Emeritus Professor of
Psychology and Biology</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#993366">Clark University</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#993366"><a
href="http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:#0563C1">http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#993366"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>From:</b>
Friam [mailto:<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Smith<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, August 11, 2015 11:36 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
Coffee Group <<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [FRIAM] A PolyMath by any other
name...<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Nick!<br>
<br>
I'm surprised *anything* bores the living crap out
of you! I hear tell of you staring for hours at
water swirling down a drain, considering the
philosophical and psychological implications of
such, and even more hours listening to the squawks
of Ravens!<br>
<br>
That said, I have to say that Marcus' and Glen's
conversation here was far enough above my head that
I can't imagine finding the time to noodle out
enough of the reserved lexicon to do more than gape
at it awkwardly. <br>
<br>
I have a good friend who is a former AstroPhysicist
who has reinvented himself a few times as a High
Performance Simulation Scientist, then Virtual
Reality Researcher, then Nueroscience Researcher.
He is definitely a PolyBore to anyone without
experience or interest in those fields, but the hoot
of it all is that one of his best and oldest
collaborators has stuck with "Applied Math" for 50
years and he calls HIM a "MathHole"... they are
finishing up a multi-year book project on their
theory of Neural Function based in Category Theory.
I suspect even people who Neurophysiology and
Category Theory find them Polybores!<br>
<br>
I do like the duality of PolyMath/PolyBore... we
might have more than a few such creatures here on
this list! <br>
<br>
- Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D">Hi Owen, </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D">How’s your summer. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D">I note that not only can
glen and company participate in a conversation
with me that bores the living crap out of you, but
they can also participate in a conversation with
you that bores the living crap out of me. But I
am not threatening to pick up my marbles and go
home. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D">I think it’s in the nature
of things. They are multitalented bores.
Polybores, we might call them. I guess being a
polybore is the other side of being a polymath. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D">Nick </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D">Nicholas S. Thompson</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D">Emeritus Professor of
Psychology and Biology</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D">Clark University</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#0563C1"><a
href="http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>From:</b>
Friam [<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Owen Densmore<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, August 11, 2015 7:41 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
Coffee Group <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><friam@redfish.com></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Re:
unikernels?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Thanks! Fascinating.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> -- Owen</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">On
Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 4:37 PM, Parks, Raymond
<<a href="mailto:rcparks@sandia.gov"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">rcparks@sandia.gov</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">
The original articles/blogs are from the U
of Cambridge Xen folks and a somewhat
buzzword lovin' sysadmin. The current trend
in using someone else's computer (SEC, more
commonly called cloud) is LInux containers
and docker. The articles predict that the
future is unikernels. A unikernel is
application specific, like containers, but
in the form of a monolithic VM that includes
the specific application and necessary
kernel services for that app. At least two
of the current unikernel projects use
functional languages - OCaml and Haskell.
The Xen model is for a developer to specify
the kernel services they need, develop the
application code, develop the configuration
code, and the whole thing gets turned into a
monolithic VM that runs in the Xen
hypervisor. In theory, this makes for
greater efficiency and less chance of the
tail wagging the dog. By that latter, I
mean that one of the major issues in
securing computer systems of systems is that
one gets all of a system one includes (i.e
DNS Bind) even though one uses one small
feature. That means all of the
vulnerabilities as well as all the features
that are not used.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">
As I said in a previous post, this is a
reinvention (for hypervisors) of IBM VM
and CSM - the latter being a minimalist
kernel with, usually, a single
application.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">
The downside of monolithic VMs is that any
change requires a complete rebuild of the
VM - even minor configuration changes that
are the equivalent of environment
variables. In a SEC environment, for
example, adding a static or CDN to the
list of sources for a web server will
require a rebuild. Alternatively, of
course, one could simply allow the
web-server unikernel to invoke scripts
from any web-site recursively - but then
an attacker simply inserts an
advertisement that invokes malware and
we're no better off than before.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">The
idea of unikernels is not bad nor is it
new - but the benefits will probably not
be as great as the current promises. The
UX will not be different for the end-user
although it might be somewhat better for
the content provider.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> It's
not clear to me that the visionaries have
thought about this outside of the WWW.
For example, I recently read an article
about how NetFlix worked hard to be able
to provide streaming video with SSL
encryption. They started with their
standard server and added SSL - the
performance hit made that impractical.
Eventually, they found a configuration of
VMs and infrastructure that made the
performance hit acceptable. A unikernel
that only served SSL-encrypted video would
be more efficient than their current VMs
running a general-purpose OS plus video
streaming software. But configuration
changes (newly added caching locations,
links that are down, et cetera) would be
the bane of a unikernel NetFlix. Each
time BGP reports a change, either the
video streaming unikernel would need to be
rebuilt or there would need to be another
layer of unikernel that dispatches
requests to the video streaming unikernel
VMs. But that dispatcher would either
need to be reconfigured or there would
need to be another unikernel that tracks
network connectivity changes and informs
the dispatcher - and now we still have
configuration changes and a complex system
of unikernels that exist to make it
possible.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> The
Internet is a dynamic system that
constantly changes - and any system that
uses the Internet needs to adapt to
constant change. The two ways to do that
with unikernels are to have the meta on
meta layers I imagine in the previous
paragraph or to change the VM unikernels
on the fly so the user will eventually get
directed to a correctly configured
unikernel. That latter means there will
be performance hits - how bad those will
be is TBD.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:13.5pt"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Ray
Parks<br>
Consilient Heuristician/IDART
Old-Timer<br>
V: <a href="tel:505-844-4024"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">505-844-4024</a>
M: <a href="tel:505-238-9359"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">505-238-9359</a>
P: <a href="tel:505-951-6084"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">505-951-6084</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">On
Aug 11, 2015, at 3:25 PM, Owen
Densmore wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">I'm so outta this
conversation!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Could one of us give a
brief explanation
of unikernels and the
related tech being
discussed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">On
Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 2:49
PM, glen ep ropella <<a
href="mailto:gepr@tempusdictum.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">gepr@tempusdictum.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in
0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><br>
OK. But what I'm still
missing is this: if
unikernels are more
domain- and/or
task-specific, then the
dev environment will
branch, perhaps quite a
bit. I.e. one dev
environment for many
deployables. We end up
with not just the original
(false?) dichotomy between
config and compiled, but
meta-config and, perhaps,
meta-compiled. And that
may even have multiple
layers, meta-meta.<br>
<br>
So, while I agree pwning
the devop role allows the
attacker to infect the
deployables, the attacks
have to be sophisticated
enough to survive that
branching to eventually
achieve the attacker's
objective. I.e.
"closeness" in terms of
automation doesn't
necessarily mean
"closeness" in terms of
total cost of attack.<br>
<br>
It just seems that the
more objective-specific
the deployable(s), the
less likely a hacked
devops process will give
the desired result. I'd
expect a lot more failed
integration/deployment
attempts if my devops
process was modified.<br>
<br>
But this is all too
abstract, of course. The
devil is in the
particulars.<br>
<br>
<br>
On 08/11/2015 01:13 PM,
Parks, Raymond wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in
0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">
I would expect the dev
environment to be closer
if not actually in the
same hypervisor. It's
almost like the web-site
we once attacked by
using the java compiler
on the web-site's
computer sytem to modify
the code in the
web-site. Right now,
with devops, the dev
environment is probably
not in the
cloud/hypervisor. And,
for unikernels that may
also be true. But to
deploy quickly in both
devops and unikernel,
there has to be a direct
channel from dev to
cloud.<br>
<br>
In more traditional
environments, there's a
dev server in a separate
space, a testing server
in its own environment
(sometimes shared with
production but not
touching production
data), and a production
server. While
traditional environments
don't always follow the
process well, in theory
the flow is developers
develop on a development
network with the dev
server, roll their
system into the testing
server which runs
alongside the production
server with a copy of
the production data and
processing real or test
transactions, and
finally install the
tested version on the
production server. From
my standpoint, that
means I can attack the
production server
directly or the
development server on a
separate network. There
has to be connectivity,
but it's likely to be
filtered, if only to
prevent the development
server from affecting
the production
environment.<br>
<br>
In devops and in
future unikernel
systems, the pace of
change is, of necessity,
much faster and the
three roles are
collapsed into one VM.
The VM image is modified
in place, given a new
name so that rollback is
possible, and the
management software is
told to use the new
image instead of the
old.<br>
<br>
One of the principles
of cyberwarfare (as
formulated in our paper
of that name) is that
some entity, somewhere,
has the privileges to do
whatever the attacker
wants to do and the
attacker's goal is to
become that entity. In
the case of devops and
unikernel, that entity
is the developer(s) who
make(s) the changes to
the VM. In traditional
environments, the
attacker might need to
assume the privileges of
several entities.<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">--
<br>
glen ep ropella -- <a
href="tel:971-255-2847" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">971-255-2847</a><br>
<br>
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</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">============================================================<br>
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</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><br>
============================================================<br>
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</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>This body part will be downloaded on demand.<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
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</blockquote>
</div>
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<br>
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</pre>
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