<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><p style="margin: 0px; text-indent: 18px; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 16px; line-height: normal; font-family: "Times New Roman";"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none;">Let\u2019s say we are able to bring the price of solar generated electricity below that of electricity generated by fossil fuels. This leaves several important questions: </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px; text-indent: 18px; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 16px; line-height: normal; font-family: "Times New Roman"; min-height: 18.4px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none;"></span><br></p>
<p style="margin: 0px; text-indent: 18px; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 16px; line-height: normal; font-family: "Times New Roman";"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Who pays for replacing the gas heater with an electric heater? That includes installation and remodeling costs as well as the cost for the device. The energy companies will work hard to make sure we generate that electricity with oil and gas - and more coal than we want to acknowledge. The number of new electric heaters that would have to be manufactured is on the order of 50-100 million for the US, and what of half the world that still cooks on open fires? Such manufacturing is going to produce more pollution and use even more energy. It requires old technologies of mining the minerals and producing the plastics that go into the manufacturing these units, as well as their transportation from mine to factory, and from the factory to homes. </span></p><br><div dir="ltr">doug</div><div dir="ltr"><br><blockquote type="cite">On Jan 1, 2020, at 11:26 AM, Prof David West <profwest@fastmail.fm> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr">\ufeff<title></title><div style="font-family:Arial;">forgive me, but "it is clear" implies that there is no other alternative. I don't believe that because I have read myriad ways of remediating the consequences of that use. Those alternatives are expensive, but more expensive than the social and economic consequences of ending fossil fuels?<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">If the only solution is one that will not be utilized, do we simply resign ourselves to the inevitable?<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">davew<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div>On Wed, Jan 1, 2020, at 8:16 PM, Douglass Carmichael wrote:<br></div><blockquote type="cite" id="qt"><div style="font-family:Arial;">We are stuck at the point where, to stay under 1.5 or 2, it is clear that we must cut fossil fuel extraction and use and there is no existing politics todo it because it mans loss of jobs, failures of mortgages, collapse of banks - and starvation. And this is Implies that we must move toward powerful centralization and decentralization at the same time.<br></div><div class="qt-"><br></div><div class="qt-"><br></div><div class="qt-"><div style="font-family:Arial;">doug<br></div><div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><blockquote class="qt-" type="cite"><div class="qt-">On Jan 1, 2020, at 10:55 AM, <<a class="qt-" href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>> <<a class="qt-" href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div class="qt-"><div style="font-family:Palatino-Roman;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;-webkit-text-stroke-width:0px;text-decoration-line:none;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor;text-decoration-thickness:auto;" class="qt-WordSection1"><div class="qt-" style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;">Friammers:<br></div><div class="qt-" style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;"> <br></div><div class="qt-" style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;">Let\u2019s constitute ourselves as the \u201cclimate change jury\u201d. The jury can have a conviction but only if we all agree. Otherwise we remain a hung jury. <span class="qt-Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><div class="qt-" style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;"> <br></div><div class="qt-" style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;">So, does the Jury agree that with Dr. Kwok of JPL that \u201c \u2026 sea level rise, disappearing sea ice, melting ice sheets and other changes are happening\u201d?<br></div><div class="qt-" style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;"> <br></div><div class="qt-" style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;">If, so, is the jury prepared to convict human activities for causing those changes?<br></div><div class="qt-" style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;"> <br></div><div class="qt-" style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;">I am polling the jury.<span class="qt-Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><div class="qt-" style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;"> <br></div><div class="qt-" style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;">Nick<span class="qt-Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><div class="qt-" style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;"> <br></div><div class="qt-" style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;">Nicholas Thompson<br></div><div class="qt-" style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;">Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology<br></div><div class="qt-" style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;">Clark University<br></div><div class="qt-" style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;"><a class="qt-" style="color:purple;text-decoration-line:underline;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor;text-decoration-thickness:auto;" href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"><span style="color:rgb(5, 99, 193)" class="colour">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><br></div><div class="qt-" style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;"><a class="qt-" style="color:purple;text-decoration-line:underline;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor;text-decoration-thickness:auto;" href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"><span style="color:rgb(5, 99, 193)" class="colour">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><br></div><div class="qt-" style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;"><br></div><div class="qt-" style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;"> <br></div><div class="qt-" style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;"> <br></div><div class="qt-" style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;"><div style="font-family:Arial;"><b class="qt-">From:</b><span class="qt-Apple-converted-space"> </span>Friam <<a class="qt-" style="color:purple;text-decoration-line:underline;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor;text-decoration-thickness:auto;" href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>><span class="qt-Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="qt-">On Behalf Of<span class="qt-Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Frank Wimberly<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><b class="qt-">Sent:</b><span class="qt-Apple-converted-space"> </span>Wednesday, January 1, 2020 11:27 AM<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><b class="qt-">To:</b><span class="qt-Apple-converted-space"> </span>The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a class="qt-" style="color:purple;text-decoration-line:underline;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor;text-decoration-thickness:auto;" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a>><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><b class="qt-">Subject:</b><span class="qt-Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [FRIAM] climate change questions<br></div></div><div class="qt-" style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;"> <br></div><div class="qt-"><div class="qt-" style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;">From NASA:<br></div><div class="qt-"><div class="qt-" style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;"><a class="qt-" style="color:purple;text-decoration-line:underline;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor;text-decoration-thickness:auto;" href="https://climate.nasa.gov/faq/16/is-it-too-late-to-prevent-climate-change/">https://climate.nasa.gov/faq/16/is-it-too-late-to-prevent-climate-change/</a><br></div></div><div class="qt-"><p style="margin: 0in 0in 12pt;" class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Calibri, sans-serif" class="font"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="size"> </span></span><br></p><div class="qt-"><div class="qt-" style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;"><div style="font-family:Arial;">-----------------------------------<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Frank Wimberly<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">My memoir:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><a class="qt-" style="color:purple;text-decoration-line:underline;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor;text-decoration-thickness:auto;" href="https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly">https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">My scientific publications:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><a class="qt-" style="color:purple;text-decoration-line:underline;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor;text-decoration-thickness:auto;" href="https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2">https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Phone (505) 670-9918<br></div></div></div></div></div><div class="qt-" style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;"> <br></div><div class="qt-"><div class="qt-"><div class="qt-" style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;">On Wed, Jan 1, 2020, 11:24 AM Frank Wimberly <<a class="qt-" style="color:purple;text-decoration-line:underline;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor;text-decoration-thickness:auto;" href="mailto:wimberly3@gmail.com">wimberly3@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div></div><blockquote type="cite" class="qt-" style="border-top-style:none;border-right-style:none;border-bottom-style:none;border-left-style:solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204, 204, 204);padding-top:0in;padding-right:0in;padding-bottom:0in;padding-left:6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in;"><div class="qt-"><div class="qt-" style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;">What scares me is recent assertions that we have passed the tipping point and there is nothing we can do about it. I have no references.<br></div><div class="qt-"><div class="qt-" style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;"> <br></div></div><div class="qt-"><p style="margin: 0in 0in 12pt;" class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Calibri, sans-serif" class="font"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="size">Frank</span></span><br></p><div class="qt-"><div class="qt-" style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;"><div style="font-family:Arial;">-----------------------------------<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Frank Wimberly<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">My memoir:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><a class="qt-" style="color:purple;text-decoration-line:underline;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor;text-decoration-thickness:auto;" href="https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly">https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">My scientific publications:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><a class="qt-" style="color:purple;text-decoration-line:underline;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor;text-decoration-thickness:auto;" href="https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2">https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Phone (505) 670-9918<br></div></div></div></div></div><div class="qt-" style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;"> <br></div><div class="qt-"><div class="qt-"><div class="qt-" style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;">On Wed, Jan 1, 2020, 11:09 AM <<a class="qt-" style="color:purple;text-decoration-line:underline;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor;text-decoration-thickness:auto;" href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div></div><blockquote type="cite" class="qt-" style="border-top-style:none;border-right-style:none;border-bottom-style:none;border-left-style:solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204, 204, 204);padding-top:0in;padding-right:0in;padding-bottom:0in;padding-left:6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in;"><div class="qt-" style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;"><div style="font-family:Arial;">Dave,<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">I like these questions, and I think The Congregation should take them as a<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">challenge.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">What can we-all, we who have long association, and a generalized (if<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">somewhat guarded) respect, come to agree upon with respect to climate change<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">and human activity? By what process, with what attitudes, by what rules of<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">engagement, are we likely to arrive at ANY truth of that matter. Because,<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">if we, here, cannot agree on some matters, agreement would seem to be beyond<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">human reach.<span class="qt-Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">So, for starters, I find I am inclined to disagree with your facts as<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">stated. They seem to assert that Things (whatever Things are) are not as<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">bad as they were predicted to be. Yet, I find, I am inclined to believe<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">that in fact Things are worse. The only specific data I feel I have been<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">exposed to recently is ocean surface rise and glacial melting. But even<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">there, I would be hard pressed to match your specific references to any of<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">my own. So, I guess the conclusion is, I disagree, but I don't know what I<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">am talking about. Ugh!<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">I could (after some labor) cite data to support the following concern: what<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">we should be watching out for, perhaps more than long term climate warming,<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">is increases in year-to-year climate variability. You can grow rape seed in<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Canada and maize in the US, and as the climate alters, the bands of climate<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">supporting these two crops will move north. But what happens if one year<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">the climate demands one crop and the next the other? And the switch from<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">one to the other is entirely unpredictable. Anybody who plants a garden<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">knows that only two dates have a tremendous effect on the productivity of<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">your garden: first frost and last frost. The average frost free period in<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">my garden in Ma 135 days or so, but only a few miles away, it is as short as<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">90. And while we have never had a 90 day frost year, we have had last frost<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">dates in June and first frost dates in early September. It would take a<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">very small year-to-year increase in variability to turn my garden from<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">something that could support life for a year in New England into a 30 x 50<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">wasteplot. <span class="qt-Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">I think I could show you that the period in which we live, the Holocene, is<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">a period of remarkably low, year-to-year, variation in climate VARIABILITY.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">I think I could convince you that everything that has occurred in the last<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">ten thousand years by way of civilization is entirely dependent on that<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">anomalous stability. The neanderthals were not too stupid to do<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">agriculture; the climate of the Pleistocene would not permit it. The whole<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">idea of nation states depends on the idea that one can make more or less the<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">same kind of living by staying more or less in the same place and doing more<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">or less the same thing. A return to Pleistocene year-to-year variation<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">would obliterate that possibility. <span class="qt-Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">If then, I could convince you, that --quite apart from Global Warming-- we<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">are seeing an increase in climate variability, then, by God, I think I could<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">scare the Living Crap out of you. <span class="qt-Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">The only question is whether we have the energy and sitzfleisch to do it,<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">and some way to keep our correspondence is order so that it's value could be<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">harvested for the long run.<span class="qt-Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Happy New Year!<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Nick<span class="qt-Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Nicholas Thompson<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Clark University<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><a class="qt-" style="color:purple;text-decoration-line:underline;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor;text-decoration-thickness:auto;" href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><a class="qt-" style="color:purple;text-decoration-line:underline;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor;text-decoration-thickness:auto;" href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">-----Original Message-----<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">From: Friam <<a class="qt-" style="color:purple;text-decoration-line:underline;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor;text-decoration-thickness:auto;" href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> On Behalf Of Prof David West<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Sent: Wednesday, January 1, 2020 9:45 AM<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">To:<span class="qt-Apple-converted-space"> </span><a class="qt-" style="color:purple;text-decoration-line:underline;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor;text-decoration-thickness:auto;" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Subject: [FRIAM] climate change questions<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Questions, that do NOT, in any manner or form deny the reality of climate<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">change.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">In 1990, citing the "best scientific models available" stated that because<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">of carbon dioxide emissions, the Earth would warm by an average of 3 degrees<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Fahrenheit and the U.S. as the largest producer, by an average of 6 degrees<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Fahrenheit by 2020.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">The UN IPCC report of the same year predicted a range of temperature<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">increases ranging from 1-5 degrees F, with the most likely expectations<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">being 3-5 by the year 2020.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">The current report predicts a rise of 2-5 degrees by 2100.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">The New York Times, CNN, and the President of Exxon USA predicted the end of<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">domestic oil and gas reserves by 2020.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">The undisputed rise in Earth (and US) temperature as of 2020 is 1 degree.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Exactly how does one go about constructing a reasoned, and accurate,<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">argument for the need to address climate change in the context of badly<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">incorrect predictions, grounded in the best available scientific models, and<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">over-hyped "disaster scenarios" promulgated by those with political or<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">simply "circulation" motives.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">In light of this context of "error" and "hype," is it fair to tar everyone<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">expressing questions or doubts with the same "deny-er" brush?<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Is it possible to constructively criticize either the models or the proposed<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">"solutions" without being dismissed as a troglodyte "deny-er?"<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Is there a way to evaluate a spectrum of means (eliminating coal to carbon<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">scrubbers to ...) along with analyses of cost/benefit ratios, human<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">socio-economic impact, etc. and compare them?<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Is there more than one strategy for getting out of this mess; and if so, how<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">do we decide (and/or construct a blend) on one that will optimize our<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">chances?<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">davew<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">============================================================<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><a class="qt-" style="color:purple;text-decoration-line:underline;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor;text-decoration-thickness:auto;" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">archives back to 2003:<span class="qt-Apple-converted-space"> </span><a class="qt-" style="color:purple;text-decoration-line:underline;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor;text-decoration-thickness:auto;" href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">FRIAM-COMIC<span class="qt-Apple-converted-space"> </span><a class="qt-" style="color:purple;text-decoration-line:underline;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor;text-decoration-thickness:auto;" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><span class="qt-Apple-converted-space"> </span>by Dr. Strangelove<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">============================================================<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">to unsubscribe<span class="qt-Apple-converted-space"> </span><a class="qt-" style="color:purple;text-decoration-line:underline;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor;text-decoration-thickness:auto;" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">archives back to 2003:<span class="qt-Apple-converted-space"> </span><a class="qt-" style="color:purple;text-decoration-line:underline;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor;text-decoration-thickness:auto;" href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">FRIAM-COMIC<span class="qt-Apple-converted-space"> </span><a class="qt-" style="color:purple;text-decoration-line:underline;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor;text-decoration-thickness:auto;" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><span class="qt-Apple-converted-space"> </span>by Dr. Strangelove<br></div></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><span style="font-family:Palatino-Roman" class="font"><span style="font-size:18px" class="size">============================================================</span></span><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><span style="font-family:Palatino-Roman" class="font"><span style="font-size:18px" class="size">FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv</span></span><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><span style="font-family:Palatino-Roman" class="font"><span style="font-size:18px" class="size">Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College</span></span><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><span style="font-family:Palatino-Roman" class="font"><span style="font-size:18px" class="size">to unsubscribe<span class="qt-Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span><a class="qt-" style="color:purple;text-decoration-line:underline;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor;text-decoration-thickness:auto;font-family:Palatino-Roman;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;-moz-text-size-adjust:auto;-webkit-text-stroke-width:0px;" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><span style="font-family:Palatino-Roman" class="font"><span style="font-size:18px" class="size">archives back to 2003:<span class="qt-Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span><a class="qt-" style="color:purple;text-decoration-line:underline;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor;text-decoration-thickness:auto;font-family:Palatino-Roman;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;-moz-text-size-adjust:auto;-webkit-text-stroke-width:0px;" href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><span style="font-family:Palatino-Roman" class="font"><span style="font-size:18px" class="size">FRIAM-COMIC<span class="qt-Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span><a class="qt-" style="color:purple;text-decoration-line:underline;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor;text-decoration-thickness:auto;font-family:Palatino-Roman;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;-moz-text-size-adjust:auto;-webkit-text-stroke-width:0px;" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a><span style="font-family:Palatino-Roman" class="font"><span style="font-size:18px" class="size"><span class="qt-Apple-converted-space"> </span>by Dr. Strangelove</span></span><br></div></div></blockquote></div></div><div>============================================================<br></div><div>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br></div><div>Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College<br></div><div>to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com<br></div><div>archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/<br></div><div>FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove<br></div><div><br></div></blockquote><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><span>============================================================</span><br><span>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv</span><br><span>Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College</span><br><span>to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</span><br><span>archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</span><br><span>FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove</span><br></div></blockquote></body></html>