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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal">Ach!<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I glad we are talking about this. It is
the kind of issue that we, in particular, ought to think up
and speak out about. My own impulse would be to entertain the
possibility of a LANL-SF, but negotiate some sort of
arrangement, say, perhaps, that no classified work could be
done in here. </p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>Nick -</p>
<p>Guerin brought up the idea of trying to engage (some from?) this
group, or the larger Complexity Community with the folks that a
*small* group of us met in Stockholm last month under the
thoughtful shepherding of Merle and Lars (Larsson). <br>
</p>
<p>He specifically mentioned the idea of Bohm Dialogue, after the
example/prescription of the late David Bohm who introduced the
idea of a particular style of Dialogue which is neither Debate nor
Discussion in the normal colloquial sense.</p>
<p>There is a group with a website: BohmDialogue.org which tries to
represent his ideas and this style. I encountered his ideas
first in his book "Wholeness and the Implicate Order" as "the
Rheomode" which roughly describes his conception of a language
which is "verb centric" which subsumes the Subject and Object in
importance to the Action. The website above is not well
developed but seems to represent the idea and promote it's broad
application. <br>
</p>
<p>Bohm's lecture in 1992 to a "Transpersonal Conference" captures a
lot of important ideas in the relevance and role of "Science" in
the larger project of "Being Human". Much of Bohm's perspective
in this area seems to derive from his long association with
philospher/spiritual-leader Jiddu Krishnamurti. Many of
Krishnamurti's fans (and by extension Bohm's) are perhaps a bit
"woo" for this crowd and I understand/share that. On the other
hand, the very discussion at hand suggests that there is a crisis
in the some of our seperations between Science and Morality, etc.</p>
<p>I mentioned, after Guerin's post, your own pursuit of a more
creative/building/collaborative mode of (online) conversation than
the existing modes at the time when you tried to implement
"noodling" on top of the Wikimedia platform we had at SFx at the
time. <br>
</p>
<p>Much of our current (all?) discussion on this list takes the form
of debate... each one of us trying to convince the others of
something in particular. It gets better (for me) when the
discussion takes more of the texture of a Discussion, even though
THAT is often really the superposition of a suite of Rants and
Raves. I'm not sure I *know* what a true Dialogue (Bohm Style)
would really be like, though I do think I've experienced it often
within the realm of Science/Technology. The way Merle and Lars'
team in Stockholm shepherded us in December in Stockholm began to
approach that. <br>
</p>
<p>I understand that our own Benny Lichnter (active in SFx, now
living in Berkeley/Oakland) may be working with/using this style
of commun(icat)ion.</p>
<p>- Steve</p>
<p>PS. Specific in response to your question about institutions and
blunt-force-trauma methods for controlling/managing/mitigating
them... I do find that large institutions are risky propositions,
and not just at the scale Elizabeth Warren is going after or Big
Gov or Big Academe or ... but I'm equally suspicious of "simple
solutions" to such... this kind of problem (in scale, quality,
importance) might require "Dialog" to begin to work into/through.<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:01fa01d5cb11$0a799380$1f6cba80$@gmail.com">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">But now I have heard from several voices
that I respect deeply, each speaking from very different kinds
of experience, and all appearing to agree that even in the
absence of War Heads, hosting a national laboratory would not
benefit Santa Fe. But what are the alternatives? In other
words, are the ills you identify inherent to all human
institutions, or really only inherent to government ones.
Would it be better if CMU put a campus here? I have heard
many of you express the same doubts about universities. Would
it be better if Google or Amazon put a campus here? Why? Why
are large for-profit institutions more to be trusted than
government and academic ones? At least with government
institutions there is the possibility of regulating them by
popular will. Amazon, not so much. Is your position that
EVERY institution should be so small we can drown it in a
bathtub? So, set the threshold for anti trust action VERY
low. How bout this: every corporation with more than a
billion dollars in assets must place 5 percent of its annual
income in a trust fund to encourage competing start ups.
Well, OK, split the College of Santa Fe campus up. Give it to
ten different real estate firms with instructions that they
must work independently. Treat it as a hazard, rather than
an opportunity. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I heard a similar proposal for a solution
to the truth problem on the internet. Every retweet over
ten-thousand contributes funds a conterarian tweet on the same
stream. In fact, how about a retweet limit on all messages.
No message can be retweeted more than ten-thousand times. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nick<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nicholas Thompson<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Emeritus Professor of Ethology and
Psychology<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Clark University<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#0563C1">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#0563C1">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Steven
A Smith<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, January 14, 2020 11:48 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: NO LANL IN SANTA FE!
Wednesday, 12; 00 outside SF City Hall; bring friends<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p>Merle, et al -<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Though I reject most of the extreme arguments I hear on both
sides of this issue, my instinct is that it would be better if
Santa Fe did NOT invite LANL/NNSA into the development of this
critical/central/prime location in the heart of *greater*
Santa Fe. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I've been living in a variant of this high-dimensional,
nonlinear, sometimes subtle and nuanced question all of my
(adult) life. I came to LANL at 24 as a technophilic
peacenik who believed MAD made sense (1980) and was happy to
ensure that WE had the BIG STICK. I raised two children In
Los Alamos and finally left in 2008 (27 years later) after
Bechtel took over, remaining in the region and in high-tech
work. Along the way I was confronted with *many* changes in
the international political, cultural and scientific
landscape. The end of the Cold War and nuclear testing, a
nuclear arms-race between India/Pakistan, two Gulf Wars, a
deep and abiding awareness of the reality and threat of
Climate Change (and other parallel Endogenous Existential
Threats).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I went through a few personal transformations as well,
including shepherding my two daughters into maturity along the
way. My opinions have become much stronger, broader and more
nuanced over the years and I am thankful to have had the
perspective offered through the rich gradients formed by our
"tri-cultural heritage". LANL is much more/less than a
traditional "Anglo" company town and the work that goes on
there is much more/less than virtually any other facility.
Adding Pu Pit production has expanded that yet more, while the
unfathomably deep explorations into what may very well
represent an array of other technological *existential
threats*. Possibly equally important sociopolitically, is the
role of Santa Fe (and San Juan Pueblo before it) as a locus of
European Conquest, including the Pueblo Revolt (I can see
Black Mesa from my window as I type). <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I agree with most of Ed's assertions about the variability of
quality of the work at LANL, and certainly question the
average "value received" with such outrageous overheads and
oft isolated efforts. I also agree with his summary of the
net socioeconomic impact on the region/state. While I was
(am via legacy savings and local available services) a
beneficiary of the very large amount of money pumped into the
region, I see the deleterious effects of it. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>With my renewed interest and awareness in the "Endogenous
Existential Threats" of our time, I am more sensitive to the
callousness of many of the people and programs at LANL toward
the local and global environment. The bulk of the memoir
Frank urged me to write (to save the list from my TMI/TL;DR
posts?) would be armatured around this braid of interesting
(in every sense of the word) paradoxes and contradictions. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I think New Mexico's legacy around Science and Technology is
real and meaningful, but has also been highly distorted by the
influence of government (and specifically Defense-related)
money.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Carry On,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> - Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 1/13/20 2:41 PM, Merle Lefkoff wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">---------- Forwarded message
---------<br>
From: <strong><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Leslie
Lakind</span></strong> <<a
href="mailto:leftielakind@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">leftielakind@gmail.com</a>><br>
Date: Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 2:23 PM<br>
Subject: NO LANL IN SANTA FE! Wednesday, 12;00 outside
SF City Hall; bring friends<br>
To: <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">----------
Forwarded message ---------<br>
From: <strong><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Greg
Mello</span></strong> <<a
href="mailto:gmello@lasg.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">gmello@lasg.org</a>><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
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<br>
<span
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target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Contribute.</a></span>
Volunteer. Contact us (<span
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and Trish in our main office</a></span>, <a
href="mailto:clark4999@msn.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">Lydia Clark in our Santa
Fe office</a>)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:red">This
letter: Press conference outside Santa Fe City
Hall at noon on Wednesday Jan. 15 <strong><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">(<a
href="https://goo.gl/maps/ycyfawsEqEYzu3wG9"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">map</a>)
-- please come, and please recruit others</span></strong></span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><b>Dear New Mexico friends – </b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">As we have explained in
previous <a
href="http://www.lasg.org/letters/letters.html"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">letters</a>,
Wednesday is the day on which the City will
announce the finalists for "Master Developer" of
the former College of Santa Fe site (and possibly
surrounding properties as well, a 64- to ~100-acre
project). The National Nuclear Security
Administration (NNSA) has applied for this role.
NNSA and/or Los Alamos National Laboratory (LANL)
are present in some (not all) other proposals, as
tenant(s). <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>The situation is opaque, fluid, and developing.
So far, Mayor Webber has disdainfully rebuffed our
requests to meet or discuss the momentous social,
cultural, and economic development impacts of
placing a nuclear weapons campus in Santa Fe.
(Don't be deceived -- that is exactly what LANL is
and what this would be.)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>People power may be the only force stronger than
LANL's money and corruption. We really need you to
help us expand our numbers. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>If you live <i>anywhere</i> nearby please come
to this joint press conference, and please ask as
many friends to come as possible. Sheer attendance
matters. A strong showing Wednesday will save
countless hours of work later, and will give wings
to efforts to push back on LANL's entirely
unjustified expansion. There are many powerful
people in Washington who know LANL specializes in
taxpayer ripoffs. Some of them need to see some
spine from us out here to take to their bosses. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>New Mexico is being selected to be a nuclear
weapons support and sacrifice area. That now
includes the Santa Fe metro area. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>We may not know know the outcome of this first
Midtown Campus decision by noon Wednesday but
regardless of that we must seize the day. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>While it seems absurd that NNSA could be a
possible "master developer," we can't be sure that
Mayor Webber and the people around him wouldn't
want that -- or want, say, a training facility for
plutonium workers. We just don't know. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>This event will also give us a chance for us to
network with each other and with representatives
of any other groups present, as well as speak to
any City officials willing to do so. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><b>Getting people to come on Wednesday is the
sole action item we are recommending right now.
It is very, very important! </b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Thank you!<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Greg, Trish, Lydia, Ernie, Michelle, and the rest
of the Study Group<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-- <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:3.0pt">Greg
Mello<br>
<a href="http://www.lasg.org/" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">Los Alamos Study
Group</a><br>
2901 Summit Place NE<br>
Albuquerque, NM 87106<br>
505-265-1200 office<br>
505-577-8563 cell<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><br clear="all">
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-- <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
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<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
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<div>
<div>
<p
style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><b><i><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">America is waking
up, as Germany
once did, to
the awareness
that </span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p
style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-stretch:normal;min-height:14px"><b><i><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">1/3 of your people
would kill
another 1/3,
while 1/3
watches. </span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p
style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-stretch:normal;min-height:14px"><i><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Werner Herzog</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br clear="all">
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-- <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.<br>
President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy<br>
<a href="http://emergentdiplomacy.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">emergentdiplomacy.org</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Santa Fe, New Mexico,
USA<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="mailto:merlelefoff@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">merlelefkoff@gmail.com</a><br>
mobile: (303) 859-5609<br>
skype: merle.lelfkoff2<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">twitter:
@Merle_Lefkoff<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
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</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>============================================================<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College<o:p></o:p></pre>
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<pre>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" moz-do-not-send="true">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> by Dr. Strangelove<o:p></o:p></pre>
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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FRIAM-COMIC <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> by Dr. Strangelove
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