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        <p class="MsoNormal">Ach!<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">I glad we are talking about this.  It is
          the kind of issue that we, in particular, ought to think up
          and speak out about.  My own impulse would be to entertain the
          possibility of a LANL-SF, but negotiate some sort of
          arrangement, say, perhaps, that no classified work could be
          done in here.  </p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <p>Nick -</p>
    <p>Guerin brought up the idea of trying to engage (some from?) this
      group, or the larger Complexity Community with the folks that a
      *small* group of us met in Stockholm last month under the
      thoughtful shepherding of Merle and Lars (Larsson).   <br>
    </p>
    <p>He specifically mentioned the idea of Bohm Dialogue, after the
      example/prescription of the late David Bohm who introduced the
      idea of a particular style of Dialogue which is neither Debate nor
      Discussion in the normal colloquial sense.</p>
    <p>There is a group with a website:  BohmDialogue.org which tries to
      represent his ideas and this style.   I encountered his ideas
      first in his book "Wholeness and the Implicate Order" as "the
      Rheomode" which roughly describes his conception of a language
      which is "verb centric" which subsumes the Subject and Object in
      importance to the Action.   The website above is not well
      developed but seems to represent the idea and promote it's broad
      application.  <br>
    </p>
    <p>Bohm's lecture in 1992 to a "Transpersonal Conference" captures a
      lot of important ideas in the relevance and role of "Science" in
      the larger project of "Being Human".  Much of Bohm's perspective
      in this area seems to derive from his long association with
      philospher/spiritual-leader Jiddu Krishnamurti.  Many of
      Krishnamurti's fans (and by extension Bohm's) are perhaps a bit
      "woo" for this crowd and I understand/share that.  On the other
      hand, the very discussion at hand suggests that there is a crisis
      in the some of our seperations between Science and Morality, etc.</p>
    <p>I mentioned, after Guerin's post, your own pursuit of a more
      creative/building/collaborative mode of (online) conversation than
      the existing modes at the time when you tried to implement
      "noodling" on top of the Wikimedia platform we had at SFx at the
      time.   <br>
    </p>
    <p>Much of our current (all?) discussion on this list takes the form
      of debate... each one of us trying to convince the others of
      something in particular.   It gets better (for me) when the
      discussion takes more of the texture of a Discussion, even though
      THAT is often really the superposition of a suite of Rants and
      Raves.   I'm not sure I *know* what a true Dialogue (Bohm Style)
      would really be like, though I do think I've experienced it often
      within the realm of Science/Technology.   The way Merle and Lars'
      team in Stockholm shepherded us in December in Stockholm began to
      approach that.  <br>
    </p>
    <p>I understand that our own Benny Lichnter (active in SFx, now
      living in Berkeley/Oakland) may be working with/using this style
      of commun(icat)ion.</p>
    <p>-  Steve</p>
    <p>PS.  Specific in response to your question about institutions and
      blunt-force-trauma methods for controlling/managing/mitigating
      them...  I do find that large institutions are risky propositions,
      and not just at the scale Elizabeth Warren is going after or Big
      Gov or Big Academe or ...  but I'm equally suspicious of "simple
      solutions" to such...  this kind of problem (in scale, quality,
      importance) might require "Dialog" to begin to work into/through.<br>
    </p>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:01fa01d5cb11$0a799380$1f6cba80$@gmail.com">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal">  <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">But now I have heard from several voices
          that I respect deeply, each speaking from very different kinds
          of experience, and all appearing to agree that even in the
          absence of War Heads, hosting a national laboratory would not
          benefit Santa Fe.  But what are the alternatives?  In other
          words, are the ills you identify inherent to all human
          institutions, or really only inherent to government ones. 
          Would it be better if CMU put a campus here?  I have heard
          many of you express the same doubts about universities.  Would
          it be better if Google or Amazon put a campus here?  Why?  Why
          are large for-profit institutions more to be trusted than
          government and academic ones?  At least with government
          institutions there is the possibility of regulating them by
          popular will.  Amazon, not so much.   Is your position that
          EVERY institution should be so small we can drown it in a
          bathtub?  So, set the threshold for anti trust action VERY
          low.  How bout this:  every corporation with more than a
          billion dollars in assets must place 5 percent of its annual
          income in a trust fund to encourage competing start ups. 
           Well, OK, split the College of Santa Fe campus up. Give it to
          ten different real estate firms with instructions that they
          must work independently.   Treat it as a hazard, rather than
          an opportunity.  <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">I heard a similar proposal for a solution
          to the truth problem on the internet.  Every retweet over
          ten-thousand contributes funds a conterarian tweet on the same
          stream.  In fact, how about a retweet limit on all messages. 
          No message can be retweeted more than ten-thousand times.   <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">Nick<o:p></o:p></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Nicholas Thompson<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Emeritus Professor of Ethology and
            Psychology<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Clark University<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
              moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#0563C1">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><a
              href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
              moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#0563C1">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Steven
              A Smith<br>
              <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, January 14, 2020 11:48 AM<br>
              <b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
              <b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: NO LANL IN SANTA FE!
              Wednesday, 12; 00 outside SF City Hall; bring friends<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p>Merle, et al -<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p>Though I reject most of the extreme arguments I hear on both
          sides of this issue, my instinct is that it would be better if
          Santa Fe did NOT invite LANL/NNSA into the development of this
          critical/central/prime location in the heart of *greater*
          Santa Fe.   <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p>I've been living in a variant of this  high-dimensional,
          nonlinear, sometimes subtle and nuanced question all of my
          (adult) life.   I came to LANL at 24 as a technophilic
          peacenik who believed MAD made sense (1980) and was happy to
          ensure that WE had the BIG STICK.  I raised two children In
          Los Alamos and finally left in 2008 (27 years later) after
          Bechtel took over, remaining in the region and in high-tech
          work.   Along the way I was confronted with *many* changes in
          the international political, cultural and scientific
          landscape.   The end of the Cold War and nuclear testing, a
          nuclear arms-race between India/Pakistan, two Gulf Wars, a
          deep and abiding awareness of the reality and threat of
          Climate Change (and other parallel Endogenous Existential
          Threats).<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p>I went through a few personal transformations as well,
          including shepherding my two daughters into maturity along the
          way.  My opinions have become much stronger, broader and more
          nuanced over the years and I am thankful to have had the
          perspective offered through the rich gradients formed by our
          "tri-cultural heritage".   LANL is much more/less than a
          traditional "Anglo" company town and the work that goes on
          there is much more/less than virtually any other facility. 
          Adding Pu Pit production has expanded that yet more, while the
          unfathomably deep explorations into what may very well
          represent an array of  other technological *existential
          threats*.  Possibly equally important sociopolitically, is the
          role of Santa Fe (and San Juan Pueblo before it) as a locus of
          European Conquest, including the Pueblo Revolt (I can see
          Black Mesa from my window as I type).  <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p>I agree with most of Ed's assertions about the variability of
          quality of the work at LANL, and certainly question the
          average "value received" with such outrageous overheads and
          oft isolated efforts.  I also agree with his summary of the
          net socioeconomic impact on the region/state.   While I was
          (am via legacy savings and local available services) a
          beneficiary of the very large amount of money pumped into the
          region, I see the deleterious effects of it.   <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p>With my renewed interest and awareness in the "Endogenous
          Existential Threats" of our time, I am more sensitive to the
          callousness of many of the people and programs at LANL toward
          the local and global environment.   The bulk of the memoir
          Frank urged me to write (to save the list from my TMI/TL;DR
          posts?) would be armatured around this braid of interesting
          (in every sense of the word) paradoxes and contradictions.   <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p>I think New Mexico's legacy around Science and Technology is
          real and meaningful, but has also been highly distorted by the
          influence of government (and specifically Defense-related)
          money.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p>Carry On,<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p> - Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">On 1/13/20 2:41 PM, Merle Lefkoff wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
          <div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                  style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            </div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
            <div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal">---------- Forwarded message
                  ---------<br>
                  From: <strong><span
                      style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Leslie
                      Lakind</span></strong> <<a
                    href="mailto:leftielakind@gmail.com"
                    moz-do-not-send="true">leftielakind@gmail.com</a>><br>
                  Date: Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 2:23 PM<br>
                  Subject: NO LANL IN SANTA FE! Wednesday, 12;00 outside
                  SF City Hall; bring friends<br>
                  To: <o:p></o:p></p>
              </div>
              <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                <div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">----------
                      Forwarded message ---------<br>
                      From: <strong><span
                          style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Greg
                          Mello</span></strong> <<a
                        href="mailto:gmello@lasg.org" target="_blank"
                        moz-do-not-send="true">gmello@lasg.org</a>><o:p></o:p></p>
                  </div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                  <div>
                    <p><span
                        style="font-family:"Cambria",serif"><a
href="http://www.lasg.org/letters/2020/nm_12Jan2020.html"
                          target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Permalink</a></span>
                      for this letter. <b><i><span style="color:red">Please
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                      <br>
                      <span
                        style="font-family:"Cambria",serif"><a
                          href="http://www.lasg.org/contribute.htm"
                          target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Contribute.</a></span>
                      Volunteer. Contact us (<span
                        style="font-family:"Cambria",serif"><a
                          href="http://www.lasg.org/contact.htm"
                          target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Greg
                          and Trish in our main office</a></span>, <a
                        href="mailto:clark4999@msn.com" target="_blank"
                        moz-do-not-send="true">Lydia Clark in our Santa
                        Fe office</a>)<o:p></o:p></p>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:red">This
                          letter: Press conference outside Santa Fe City
                          Hall at noon on Wednesday Jan. 15 <strong><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">(<a
                                href="https://goo.gl/maps/ycyfawsEqEYzu3wG9"
                                target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">map</a>)
                              -- please come, and please recruit others</span></strong></span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
                    <p><b>Dear New Mexico friends – </b><o:p></o:p></p>
                    <p class="MsoNormal">As we have explained in
                      previous <a
                        href="http://www.lasg.org/letters/letters.html"
                        target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">letters</a>,
                      Wednesday is the day on which the City will
                      announce the finalists for "Master Developer" of
                      the former College of Santa Fe site (and possibly
                      surrounding properties as well, a 64- to ~100-acre
                      project). The National Nuclear Security
                      Administration (NNSA) has applied for this role.
                      NNSA and/or Los Alamos National Laboratory (LANL)
                      are present in some (not all) other proposals, as
                      tenant(s). <o:p></o:p></p>
                    <p>The situation is opaque, fluid, and developing.
                      So far, Mayor Webber has disdainfully rebuffed our
                      requests to meet or discuss the momentous social,
                      cultural, and economic development impacts of
                      placing a nuclear weapons campus in Santa Fe.
                      (Don't be deceived -- that is exactly what LANL is
                      and what this would be.)<o:p></o:p></p>
                    <p>People power may be the only force stronger than
                      LANL's money and corruption. We really need you to
                      help us expand our numbers. <o:p></o:p></p>
                    <p>If you live <i>anywhere</i> nearby please come
                      to this joint press conference, and please ask as
                      many friends to come as possible. Sheer attendance
                      matters. A strong showing Wednesday will save
                      countless hours of work later, and will give wings
                      to efforts to push back on LANL's entirely
                      unjustified expansion. There are many powerful
                      people in Washington who know LANL specializes in
                      taxpayer ripoffs. Some of them need to see some
                      spine from us out here to take to their bosses. <o:p></o:p></p>
                    <p>New Mexico is being selected to be a nuclear
                      weapons support and sacrifice area. That now
                      includes the Santa Fe metro area. <o:p></o:p></p>
                    <p>We may not know know the outcome of this first
                      Midtown Campus decision by noon Wednesday but
                      regardless of that we must seize the day. <o:p></o:p></p>
                    <p>While it seems absurd that NNSA could be a
                      possible "master developer," we can't be sure that
                      Mayor Webber and the people around him wouldn't
                      want that -- or want, say, a training facility for
                      plutonium workers. We just don't know. <o:p></o:p></p>
                    <p>This event will also give us a chance for us to
                      network with each other and with representatives
                      of any other groups present, as well as speak to
                      any City officials willing to do so. <o:p></o:p></p>
                    <p><b>Getting people to come on Wednesday is the
                        sole action item we are recommending right now.
                        It is very, very important!  </b><o:p></o:p></p>
                    <p>Thank you!<o:p></o:p></p>
                    <p>Greg, Trish, Lydia, Ernie, Michelle, and the rest
                      of the Study Group<o:p></o:p></p>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">-- <o:p></o:p></p>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:3.0pt">Greg
                          Mello<br>
                          <a href="http://www.lasg.org/" target="_blank"
                            moz-do-not-send="true">Los Alamos Study
                            Group</a><br>
                          2901 Summit Place NE<br>
                          Albuquerque, NM 87106<br>
                          505-265-1200 office<br>
                          505-577-8563 cell<o:p></o:p></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:6.0pt">To
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                  <o:p></o:p></p>
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                  <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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                <p class="MsoNormal">-- <o:p></o:p></p>
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                                                      <p
                                                        style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><b><i><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">America is waking
                                                          up, as Germany
                                                          once did, to
                                                          the awareness
                                                          that </span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
                                                      <p
style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-stretch:normal;min-height:14px"><b><i><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">1/3 of your people
                                                          would kill
                                                          another 1/3,
                                                          while 1/3
                                                          watches. </span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
                                                      <p
style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-stretch:normal;min-height:14px"><i><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Werner Herzog</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
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                                                          class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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                                                          class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
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                                                          <o:p></o:p></p>
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            <p class="MsoNormal"><br clear="all">
              <o:p></o:p></p>
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              <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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            <p class="MsoNormal">-- <o:p></o:p></p>
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                              <p class="MsoNormal">Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.<br>
                                President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy<br>
                                <a href="http://emergentdiplomacy.org"
                                  target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">emergentdiplomacy.org</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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                              <p class="MsoNormal">Santa Fe, New Mexico,
                                USA<o:p></o:p></p>
                            </div>
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                              <p class="MsoNormal"><a
                                  href="mailto:merlelefoff@gmail.com"
                                  target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">merlelefkoff@gmail.com</a><br>
                                mobile:  (303) 859-5609<br>
                                skype:  merle.lelfkoff2<o:p></o:p></p>
                            </div>
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                              <p class="MsoNormal">twitter:
                                @Merle_Lefkoff<o:p></o:p></p>
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          <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
            <br>
            <o:p></o:p></p>
          <pre>============================================================<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>to unsubscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" moz-do-not-send="true">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>archives back to 2003: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" moz-do-not-send="true">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" moz-do-not-send="true">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> by Dr. Strangelove<o:p></o:p></pre>
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      <br>
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      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a>
archives back to 2003: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a>
FRIAM-COMIC <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> by Dr. Strangelove
</pre>
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