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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal>Dave, <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>I don\u2019t think it\u2019s dualism unless I assert that the representation and the thing represented are different sorts of stuff. If every representation is OF OTHER REPRESENTATIONS, then we have a representation-monism. If you taunt me by asking what the FIRST representation was OF, I will shrug and say I am not that interested in first cases. We begin in the middle. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Snowing, here. Fat flakes. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Nick<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Nicholas Thompson<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Clark University<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"><span style='color:#0563C1'>ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"><span style='color:#0563C1'>https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b>From:</b> Friam <friam-bounces@redfish.com> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Prof David West<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, January 16, 2020 1:39 AM<br><b>To:</b> friam@redfish.com<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] description - explanation - metaphor - model - and reply<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Nick,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Not sophmoric smarminess - but a contradiction of your monism. "you are a model" contradicts "my model of you" which asserts "representation" of something \u2014 Cartesian dualism.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>davew<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Wed, Jan 15, 2020, at 9:44 PM, <a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' id=qt><div><p class=qt-msonormal1>Eric,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-msonormal1> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-msonormal1>I apologize forwhat may seem sophomoric smarminess but\u2026..<o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-msonormal1> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-msonormal1>To me, you are a model, right? Whatever you are, it is my model of you with which I am dealing. So, when you intend something by a model, it is a case of a model intending a model, right? So, models intend, right? So why not just say so, in the first instance.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-msonormal1> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-msonormal1>Nick<o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-msonormal1> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-msonormal1>Nicholas Thompson<o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-msonormal1>Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology<o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-msonormal1>Clark University<o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-msonormal1><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"><span class=colour><span style='color:#0563C1'>ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-msonormal1><a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"><span class=colour><span style='color:#0563C1'>https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-msonormal1><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=qt-msonormal1> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-msonormal1> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Eric Charles<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Sent:</span></b><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> Wednesday, January 15, 2020 1:27 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>To:</span></b><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a>><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Subject:</span></b><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> Re: [FRIAM] description - explanation - metaphor - model - and reply<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=qt-msonormal1> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1>There is an interesting issue that often comes up in these contexts, in which someone asserts that the models mean something all on their own. If it is someone who has picked up our language, they might, for example, ask "What does the model intend? The Model, itself? "<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1><span class=font><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Glen does this by saying "there's good reason to believe you will *never* actually understand how your model works."</span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1>I have seen Nick oscillate in those discussions, towards and away from thinking he needs to rewrite everything. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1>I insist that is not the direction should be going in. The model doesn't intend anything. A person, who is offering a model, intends something by it, and does not intend other things. Because THAT is what we'r are talking about.... There IS a chance (though no guarentee) that the person offering a model (fully) understands what they do or do not intend to match between the model and the situation that is modeled. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1>We aren't talking about anything other than people doing things. X is "a model" if/when someone thinks an aspect of X matches something happening somewhere else, and all models contain both intended and unintended implications. This makes a question of whether or not someone "fully understands their model" a question primarily about the understanding, not primarily about "the model itself". <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=qt-msonormal1>On Wed, Jan 15, 2020, 1:13 PM u\u01ddl\u0183 <span class=font><span style='font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif'>\u2623</span></span> <<a href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com">gepropella@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-top-color:currentcolor;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1'><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Did Epstein ever respond to your criticism?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>For what little it's worth, I disagree with your lesson. Obtuse models can be very useful. In fact, there's good reason to believe you will *never* actually understand how your model works, any more than you'll ever understand how that model's referent(s) work. I may even be able to use Pierce to argue that to you. 8^)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>On 1/15/20 9:23 AM, <a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>> The lesson is, if you<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>> don\u2019t understand how your model works, you aren\u2019t doing yourself any favors by inventing it. This led to my war with Epstein in the pages of JSSS about the relation between explanation and prediction. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>-- <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=font><span style='font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif'>\u2623</span></span><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> u\u01ddl\u0183<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>============================================================<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>to unsubscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>archives back to 2003: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/FRIAM-COMIC">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/<br>FRIAM-COMIC</a> <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> by Dr. Strangelove<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>============================================================<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>to unsubscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>archives back to 2003: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> by Dr. Strangelove<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></div></body></html>