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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal>Oh, Frank!<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>That\u2019s really good!<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>That\u2019s the paradox of pragmatism. Some things are NOT random; we just never know for sure which ones those are. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>N<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Nicholas Thompson<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Clark University<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"><span style='color:#0563C1'>ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"><span style='color:#0563C1'>https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><b>From:</b> Friam <friam-bounces@redfish.com> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Frank Wimberly<br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, January 26, 2020 2:18 PM<br><b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Abduction and Introspection<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#333333;background:#FFF7E5'>Man is Half Blind</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#333333;background:#FFF7E5'>Delmore Schwartz</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#333333;background:#FFF7E5'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#333333;background:#FFF7E5'>Hope is not a certainty;</span><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#333333'><br><span style='background:#FFF7E5'>Guess is not a certainty.</span><br><span style='background:#FFF7E5'>So are perception and prediction.</span><br><span style='background:#FFF7E5'>Intuition is an illusion.</span><br><span style='background:#FFF7E5'>Yet they are the only aids</span><br><span style='background:#FFF7E5'>With which man walks, half blind.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>-----------------------------------<br>Frank Wimberly<br><br>My memoir:<br><a href="https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly">https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly</a><br><br>My scientific publications:<br><a href="https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2">https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2</a><br><br>Phone (505) 670-9918<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Sun, Jan 26, 2020, 10:49 AM Marcus Daniels <<a href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I thought the question was about software engineering, not about predicting emergent behavior? Detecting undesirable behaviors is easier than predicting all behaviors..<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>From: </span></b><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> on behalf of Pieter Steenekamp <<a href="mailto:pieters@randcontrols.co.za" target="_blank">pieters@randcontrols.co.za</a>><br><b>Reply-To: </b>The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam@redfish.com</a>><br><b>Date: </b>Saturday, January 25, 2020 at 10:48 PM<br><b>To: </b>The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam@redfish.com</a>><br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [FRIAM] Abduction and Introspection</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I would go along with Johsua Epstein's "if you did not grow it you did not explain it". Keep in mind that this motto applies to problems involving emergence. So what I'm saying is that it's in many cases futile to apply logic to reasoning to find answers - and I refer to the emergent properties of the human brain as well as to ABM (agent based modeling) software. But even if the problem involves emergence, it's easy for both human and computer logic to apply validation logic. Similar to the P=NP problem*, it's difficult to find the solution, but easy to verify. <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>So my answer to "<b><i><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:#500050'>As software engineers, what conditions would a program have to fulfill to say that a computer was monitoring \u201citself</span></i></b>" is simply: explicitly verify the results. There are many approaches to do this verification; applying logic, checking against measured actual data, checking for violations of physics, etc. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>*I know you all know it, just a refresher, The P=NP problem is one of the biggest unsolved computer science problems. There is a class of very difficult to solve problems and a class of very easy to verify problems. The P=NP problem asks the following: if you have a difficult to solve but easy to verify problem, is it possible to find a solution that is reasonably easy for a computer to solve. "Reasonably easy" is defined as can you solve it in polynomial time. The current algorithms takes exponential time to solve it and even for a moderate size problem that means more time that the age of the universe for a supercomputer to solve it.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Pieter<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On Sat, 25 Jan 2020 at 23:04, Marcus Daniels <<a href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com" target="_blank">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I would say the problem of debugging (or introspection if you insist) is like if you find yourself at some random place, never seen before, and the task it do develop a map and learn the local language and customs. If one is given the job of law enforcement (debugging violations of law), it is necessary to collect quite a bit of information, e.g. the laws of the jurisdiction, the sensitivities and conflicts in the area, and detailed geography. In haphazardly-developed software, learning about one part of a city teaches you nothing about another part of the city. In well-designed software, one can orient oneself quickly because there are many easily-learnable conventions to follow. I would say this distinction between the modeler and the modeled is not that helpful. To really avoid bugs, one wants to have metaphorical citizens that are genetically incapable of breaking laws. Privileged access is kind of beside the point because in practice software is often far too big to fully rationalize. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>From: </span></b><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> on behalf of "<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" target="_blank">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>" <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" target="_blank">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>><br><b>Reply-To: </b>The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam@redfish.com</a>><br><b>Date: </b>Saturday, January 25, 2020 at 11:57 AM<br><b>To: </b>'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam@redfish.com</a>><br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [FRIAM] Abduction and Introspection</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Thanks, Marcus, <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Am I correct that all of your examples fall with in this frame;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shapetype id="_x0000_t75" coordsize="21600,21600" o:spt="75" o:preferrelative="t" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" filled="f" stroked="f">
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</v:shape><![endif]--><![if !vml]><img width=405 height=95 style='width:4.2222in;height:.9861in' src="cid:image001.png@01D5D42D.D03A82D0" align=left hspace=8 v:shapes="_x0000_s1026"><![endif]><br clear=all><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I keep expecting you guys to scream at me, \u201cOf course, you idiot, self-perception is partial and subject to error! HTF could it be otherwise?\u201d I would love that. I would record it and put it on loop for half my colleagues in psychology departments around the world. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Nick <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Nicholas Thompson<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Clark University<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style='color:#0563C1'>ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/" target="_blank"><span style='color:#0563C1'>https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b>From:</b> Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Marcus Daniels<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, January 25, 2020 12:16 PM<br><b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam@redfish.com</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Abduction and Introspection<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Nick writes:</span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=m-820352470576978562gmail-m3992771605335586144quotation> As software engineers, what conditions would a program have to fulfill to say that a computer was monitoring \u201citself<o:p></o:p></p><p class=m-820352470576978562gmail-m3992771605335586144quotation> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=m-820352470576978562gmail-m3992771605335586144quotation>It is common for codes that calculate things to periodically test invariants that should hold. For example, a physics code might test for conservation of mass or energy. A conversion between a data structure with one index scheme to another is often followed by a check to ensure the total number of records did not change, or if it did change that it changed by an expected amount. It is also possible, but less common, to write a code so that proofs are constructed by virtue of the code being compliable against a set of types. The types describe all of the conditions that must hold regarding the behavior of a function. In that case it is not necessary to detect if something goes haywire at runtime because it is simply not possible for something to go haywire. (A computer could still miscalculate due to a cosmic ray, or some other physical interruption, but assuming that did not happen a complete proof-carrying code would not fail within its specifications.)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=m-820352470576978562gmail-m3992771605335586144quotation>A weaker form of self-monitoring is to periodically check for memory or disk usage, and to raise an alarm if they are unexpectedly high or low. Such an alarm might trigger cleanups of old results, otherwise kept around for convenience. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=m-820352470576978562gmail-m3992771605335586144quotation> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=m-820352470576978562gmail-m3992771605335586144quotation>Marcus<o:p></o:p></p><p class=m-820352470576978562gmail-m3992771605335586144msoplaintext> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>============================================================<br>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College<br>to unsubscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>archives back to 2003: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" target="_blank">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> by Dr. Strangelove<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal>============================================================<br>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College<br>to unsubscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>archives back to 2003: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" target="_blank">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> by Dr. Strangelove<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div></div></body></html>