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<p>Nick -</p>
<p>Yesterday we went to the documentary "Fantastic Fungi" at CCA and
I highly recommend it to you. It is relatively short (just over
an hour) but did not feel that way.<br>
</p>
<p> While it was nominally about fungi the Kingdom, it was primarily
about human's relationship to fungi and in particular the
medicinal and entheogenic properties experienced/observed/imagined
in very contemporary terms. MIchael Pollan and Andrew Weil both
have prominent roles as interviewees.</p>
<p>Without attempting a full summary or risking "spoilers", I can
say that there were at least a few questionable claims made, but
overall it felt level and somewhat objective. You won't go away
feeling like you were smashed by a sledgehammer, nor do I think
you will run out looking for a source for 'shrooms. Others might
(the latter). It may provide more reference for you to appreciate
the arguments for why humans might be positively influenced by
ingesting such things.<br>
</p>
<p>I have heard others (who are inclined this way) that the movie is
best experienced while microdosing psilocybin. I settled for
nutritional yeast on my popcorn... yum(ami).</p>
<p>- Steve<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/7/20 10:35 AM,
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal">Ok, so we need to get our metaphor’s
straight, here. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The sledge hammer is meant to be an
experience-randomizer. To the extent that sledge hammers do
predictable things to clocks, it fails for me as a metaphor.
Once my Sledge Hammer has struck my clock, there should be no
relation between the positions of the pieces of the clock
before the blow and after. But even granting its limitations,
I don’t think my Sledge Hammer is an appropriate metaphor for
your complaint about ordinary software. I think you are
talking about a bull-dozer. Like a Sledge Hammer, a Bulldozer
does not care for the structure of whatever it encounters; but
unlike my Sledge Hammer, it imposes a highly predictable order
of its own. Neither the Sledge Hammer nor the Bulldozer are
like the Taoist Butcher, who clearly cares for .the structure
of what he cuts. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">So, what we are arguing about can be
construed as an argument about which metaphor is most aptly
applied to taking drugs. I am arguing for the Sledge Hammer.
Sledge Hammers have their uses. I have always imagined that
electroshock therapy is a kind of sledge hammer, although
perhaps it is more like a bulldozer, returning the brain to
factory settings. Bulldozers are very useful in that they
create a structure on which other things can easily be built.
You might be arguing that drug-taking is a bull dozer. Or you
might be arguing that drug-taking is more like the Taoist
butcher, in that it reveals the structure of what is already
there. It is like a microscopist’s stain. But to make that
metaphor work, you have to grant to the drug, or to the person
who administers it, the wisdom and experience of the butcher
who has become so familiar with meat that he can, without
thinking about it, see where the meat isn’t. Now you are in
Castenada territory, the territory of <i>faith</i>. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks, as always, Dave, for your
generosity of spirit. By the way, some keen-eyed observer may
detect something seriously awry in my metaphorical proceeding
above. Presumably we both agree that the brain is a device
that tells us something about something else, not about
itself. Dubious as I am that a sledge hammer can tell us
anything about the structure of clocks, I am even MORE dubious
that it can tell us anything about the structure of <i>time.
</i>The Taoist Butcher metaphor seems to work in a different
way. To make it consistent, we would have to have the Taoist
Butcher dissect HIMSELF in order to discover the structure of
meat. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nick <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nicholas Thompson<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Emeritus Professor of Ethology and
Psychology<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Clark University<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#0563C1">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#0563C1">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Prof
David West<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, March 7, 2020 3:37 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Acid epistemology - restarting
a previous conversation<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Oooh fun
...<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">I
also stipulate that hitting an alarm clock with a
sledge hammer MIGHT reveal robust and enduring
information about alarm clocks.</span></i></b><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">Let
me twist this example a bit to make what I think might be
a valid way to assert a "benefit" of drug-epistemology
over sledge-hammer.</span><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">I
must start a bit afield with a quote from Plato and a
Taoist koan:</span><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">[First,]
perceiving and bringing together under one Idea the
scattered particulars, so that one makes clear the thing
which he wishes to do... [Second,] the separation of the
Idea into classes, by dividing it where the natural joints
are, and not trying to break any part, after the manner of
as a bad carver... I love these processes of division and
bringing together, and if I think any other man is able to
see things that can naturally be collected into one and
divided into many, him I will follow as if he were as a
god.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">- Plato<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">"A Taoist
butcher used but one knife his entire career without the
need to sharpen it. At his retirement party the Emperor
asked him about this extraordinary feat, The butcher
stated, "Oh, I simply cut where the meat wasn't."<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Now this
leads to a problem of decomposition - breaking up a large
and complex problem into tractable sub-problems. Software
engineering uses a sledgehammer epistemology of data
structures and algorithms to accomplish this decomposition
with results that are horrific. In contrast, a "vision"
induced, daydreaming about biological cells and cellular
organisms led to the insight that cells are differentiated
from each other by what they do, not what they are. So
software modularity might be based on behavior. Far
superior results in myriad ways.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">If we
take C.D.Broad and Huxley seriously, mescaline reveals
"more of reality" than typically available to our
conscious minds. I would assert and be willing to defend
that at least that sort of drug-epistemology could enhance
our ability to actually see "where the meat wasn't" and
therefore enhance our ability to decompose large
complicated systems (maybe even complex systems) in
tractable sub-problems.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">* * * * *
* * <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">My vision
was not based on a stain, nor was it of cells dividing -
it was an inter-cellular dissolving and recombining of
inter-cellular elements, proteins etc., into other
inter-cellular elements such that when the cell did
eventually divide its internals were radically different.
What I "saw" would more likely inform a genetic engineer
than someone investigating cell division stuff.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">* * * * *
*<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Sorry for
making you ill, but it is your interpretation that is at
fault.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">You might
remember the early days of Cinerama movies. They would
start the movie showing a scene, like flying through the
Grand canyon, then suddenly expand the displayed
rectangle, the size of a traditional movie screen, into
the full height and width of the Cinerama screen.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">It was
still just a movie, but the experience of the movie was
enhanced? with sensations of vertigo, movement, detail,
etc.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">What
Broad and Huxley suggest is that experience is "filtered"
by the organism and that filtering reduces experience to
the dimensions of a pre-Cinerama movie. Huxley then
asserts that mescaline turns experience into Experience.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">We are
all experience monists here, but some of us are making the
claim that there can be, at minimum, quantitative
differences among experiences (something akin to the
increase in pixel density and 8 versus 64 bit
representation of the color of each pixel) and, at least
the possibility of qualitative differences, e.g. the
vertigo of Cinerama.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">And,
those differences are attainable via various means. Not
just drugs.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">So my
assertion of "Apollonian-er than thou" is a claim that I
experience "life" in "Cinerama" and you in "cinema
multiplex standard screen."<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">davew<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Sat, Mar 7, 2020, at 5:53 AM, <a
href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt" id="qt">
<div>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">See Larding below.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">By the way: my mail interface
is taken to tucking some of my mail into a folder called
"important" where, of course, I cannot see it. So, if I
appear to go missing, don't hesitate to write me an
unimportant message telling me that there are important
ones awaiting me. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">Of course I have n o I d e a
what distinguishes an important message from an
unimportant one. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">As I said, see below: Oh, and
dave, what I wrote below is TESTY. I don’t realty feel
testy, I don’t really feel qualified to be testy. I
think the rhetoric just got away with me. It has happened
before and you have promised it doesn’t’ bother you, so I
am counting on your grace-under-fire again. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">Your friend ,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">Nick<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">Nicholas Thompson<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">Emeritus Professor of Ethology
and Psychology<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">Clark University<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1"><a
href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1"><a
href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">From: Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
On Behalf Of Prof David West<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Sent: Friday, March 6, 2020 2:00 AM<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">To: <a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Acid
epistemology - restarting a previous conversation<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">thanks Glen,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">I totally agree with you about
dead white guys. [Except I have had face-to-face
conversations with a couple of them :) ] I reference them
not as a source of answers but in an attempt to find some
kind of conceptual bridge for a conversation. But that
might be totally counterproductive as it tends to
introduce a propensity for forking the conversation.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">Engaging with contemporary
scientists is hard when it comes to drug-induced data sets
/ experiences. I hope to make some connections with
contemporary researchers at the ICPR conference I
mentioned but the focus there seems to be psycho-medical
and related to the oxytocin article you posted, and my
direct interests tend to diverge from that.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">Perhaps something more direct
might be useful. Two things, the second is mostly to tease
Nick.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1"><span style="color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">1) I am fascinated by the field
of scientific visualization, using imagery to present
complex data sets. Recently I "observed" the precise
moment of sperm-egg fertilization. A whole lot was going
on inside the egg cell boundary immediately upon contact
(not penetration) with the sperm. The visualization was of
thousands (millions?) of discrete inter-cellular elements
breaking free from existing structures, like DNA strands,
proteins, molecules and moving about independently. I
could see several "fields" that were a kind of
"probability field." These fields constrained both the
movement of the various elements and, most importantly,
what structures would emerge from their recombination.
"Watching" the DNA strand 'dissolve" and "reform" was
particularly interesting because it was totally unlike the
"unzip into two strands, the zip-up a strand-half from
each donor" visualization I have seen presented in
animations explaining the process. Instead I saw all
kinds of "clumps" form and merge into larger/longer
"clumps" then engage in an interesting
hula/belly/undulation dance to rearrange the structure
into a final form. All of this "guided" by the very
visible "probability fields;" more than one and color
coded.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">Now, if I were a cellular
biologist could I make use of this vision?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1"><b><i><span style="color:black">[NST===>]
I love this example. Every stain produces a new
image and some stains are more revealing than
others, in that the models they facilitate are more
robust and enduring in their predictions. I
stipulate that. I also stipulate that hitting an
alarm clock with a sledge hammer MIGHT reveal robust
and enduring information about alarm clocks. I just
don’t think it’s likely. And there is the
possibility that the clock wont be very accurate
thereafter. That is the whole of my argument
against drug -epistemology. So if you are NOT
arguing that drug-epistemology is somehow superior
to sledge-hammer epistemology, then we agree and we
don’t have to argue any more. </span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">Since I am not a cellular
biologist and have no understanding of inter-cellular
structures/dynamics/chemistry, nor any DNA knowledge,
where did the imagery come from and why did it hang
together so well?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">Was this experience just an
amusing bit of entertainment" Or, is there an insight of
some sort lurking there?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1"><b><i><span style="color:black">[NST===>]
I like the metaphor with stains. But just remember,
if my memory serves me correctly, you don’t see jack
shit when cells divide without the right stain. All
such observations are of the Peircean type/; “If I
do this, then I will get that.” </span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">2) En garde Nick.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1"><b><i><span style="color:black">[NST===>]
je me garde</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">Quoting Huxley, paraphrasing
C.D. Broad — "The function of the brain, nervous system,
and sense organs is, in the main, eliminative and not
productive. Each person is at each moment capable of
remembering all that has ever happened to him and of
perceiving everything that is happening everywhere in the
universe. This is Mind-At-Large.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1"><b><i><span style="color:black">[NST===>]
Dave, even without my characteristic ill ease with
dispositions (like gravity, for instance), this last
sentence gives me the heebs. And the Heaves. It is
either a definition of memory (=all that I
experience as past at a moment) or it is non-sense.
Or some kind of balmy article of faith. </span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">But in so far as we are animals,
our business is at all costs to survive.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1"><b><i>[NST===>] No. No
animal has ever survived. No animal has ever tried to
survive. No species has ever tried to survive. This
is all foolishness pressed on us by Spencer. Even
Darwin was leery of it. (and no I cannot cite text)</i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">To make biological survival
possible, Mind-At-Large, has to be funneled through the
reducing valve of the brain and nervous system. What comes
out at the other end is a measly trickle of the kind of
consciousness which will help us to stay alive on the
surface of this particular planet."<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1"><b><i><span style="color:black">[NST===>]
I suppose one can make sense of this sort of talk by
postulating a world outside of experience, but
unless you postulate that this world beyond
experience can in principle never affect experience,
you end up with a contradiction because anything
that effects experience in any way, however
indirect, is, by definition, experienced. </span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">Two personal experiences: 1) I
tend to not notice when my glasses get cloudy from
accumulation of dust and moisture until it is quite bad. I
clean my glasses, put them on, and am amazed at how clear
and detailed my perceptions are post-cleaning. A very
dramatic difference.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1"><b><i>[NST===>] Well of
course. Cleaning glasses is a method that increases
the predictive potential of your current visual
experiences. If your argument is only that there are
experiences I have not had which will surprise me if I
have them, I agree, so we don’t have to argue about
that any more, right?</i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">And, 2) the proper dose of a
hallucinogen (and/or the right kind of meditation) and my
perceptions of the world around me, using all my senses,
are amazingly clear and detailed in the same way as my
visual perception was changed by cleaning grime from my
glasses.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1"><b><i><span style="color:black">[NST===>]
The innate school marm gives us little jolts of
pleasure from time to time, usually in response to
activities that please her. One of those jolts is a
“sense of clarity.” If you break into her storeroom
and steal her clarity candies, you will get the
clarity-pleasure even while seeing muddily. </span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1"><b><i><span style="color:black"> </span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1"><b><i><span style="color:black">Now
I grant you it’s possible you will see something
more clearly. See above the sledgehammered clock
argument. </span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">I would contend that the drug
(meditation) removed the muddying filter of my
brain/nervous system/ sense organs just as the isopropyl
alcohol removed the muddying filter of moisture-dust on my
glasses.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">I see the world as it "really"
is.<b><i>[NST===>]Well, that remains to be seen,
right. It might be that the dust filters the light in
such a way as to reveal structures that you cannot see
through the cleaned glass. The proof is in the
pudding … i.e., the proving out. </i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">Now the tease: I would contend
that I am more Apollonian than thou because I value Life,
and more of Life, more directly, than you do. It is not
varied experience I seek, but a direct, clear, complete,
apprehension and appreciation of Life Itself.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1"><b><i><span style="color:black">[NST===>]
Similarly, let it be the case that I had a dozen
clocks and you told me you had hit them all with a
sledge hammer; now, if you told me you had lied,
and gave me back the 12<sup>th</sup> clock in
perfect working order, I would value it a lot more
for having thought I had lost it. </span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">davew<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">On Thu, Mar 5, 2020, at 4:58 PM,
uǝlƃ <span class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Segoe UI
Emoji",sans-serif">☣</span></span> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">> It's not pesky for me in
the slightest. I'm *very* interested. I<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">> haven't contributed because
it's not clear I have anything to<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">> contribute.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">> Maybe I can start with a
criticism, though. It's unclear to me why you<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">> (or anyone) would
delicately flip through crumbling pages of<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">> philosophy when there are
fresh and juicy results from<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">> (interventionist) methods
right in front of us? The oxytocin post<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">> really *was* inspired by
this thread. But because you guys are talking<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">> about dead white men like
Peirce and James, it's unclear how the science relates.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">> My skepticism goes even
deeper (beyond dead white men) to why one<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">> would think *anyone*
(alive, dead, white or brown) might be able to<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">> *think* up an explanation
for how knowledge grows. I would like to,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">> but cannot, avoid the
inference that this belief anyone (or any<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">> "school" of people) can
think up explanations stems from a bias toward<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">> *individualism*. My snarky
poke at "super intelligent god-people" in a<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">> post awhile back was<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">> (misguidedly) intended to
express this same skepticism. I worry that<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">> poking around in old
philosophy is simply an artifact of the mythology<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">> surrounding the "mind" and
Great Men<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">> <<a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_man_theory"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:windowtext">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_man_theory</span></a>>.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">> It seems to me like science
works in *spite* of our biases to<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">> individualism. So, if I
want to understand knowledge, I have to stop<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">> identifying ways of knowing
through dead individuals and focus on the<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">> flowing *field* of the
collective scientists.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">> Of course, that doesn't
mean we ignore the writings of the dead people.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">> But it means liberally
slashing away anything that even smells obsolete.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">> Regardless of what you do
post, don't interpret *my* lack of response<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">> as disinterest or
irritation, because it's not.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">> On 3/5/20 6:14 AM, Prof
David West wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">> > And the key to my
being a pest — is anyone else curious about these things?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">> --<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">> <span class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Segoe UI
Emoji",sans-serif">☣</span></span> uǝlƃ<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">>
============================================================<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msoplaintext1">> FRIAM Applied Complexity
Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe<o:p></o:p></p>
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a>
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</pre>
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