<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)"><style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji";
panose-1:2 11 5 2 4 2 4 2 2 3;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoPlainText, li.MsoPlainText, div.MsoPlainText
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Plain Text Char";
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}
p.quotation, li.quotation, div.quotation
{mso-style-name:quotation;
mso-style-link:"quotation Char";
margin-top:0in;
margin-right:0in;
margin-bottom:0in;
margin-left:.5in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;
font-weight:bold;
font-style:italic;}
span.quotationChar
{mso-style-name:"quotation Char";
mso-style-link:quotation;
font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;
font-weight:bold;
font-style:italic;}
span.PlainTextChar
{mso-style-name:"Plain Text Char";
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Plain Text";
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}
@page WordSection1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link="#0563C1" vlink="#954F72"><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoPlainText>Glen, <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>I would love to take this<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=quotation>Things that help me construct metal, shitting ducks are useful.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>To the Pragmatism chat-site and watch it light up. But you have taught me that that would be trolling, and I believe that trolling is an unequivocally Bad Thing, so I won’t. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Now, I am going to poke Eric Charles with it tho, by saying that THIS is what William James means by pragmatism. He will say that I am an idiot! (Stipulated) He may even begin his letter with, “Listen, Bucko!” (So I suppose I AM trolling Eric.) But what he will say will be interesting. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>This is part of argument, that has been going on for weeks in which I am trying to get Eric to alter the Pragmatic Maxim, a thesis about the meaning of concepts, as follows, <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=quotation>Consider what effects, that might conceivably have <s>practical</s> practicial bearings, we conceive the object of our conception to have. Then, our conception of these effects is the whole of our conception of the object.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Because it’s inventor, Peirce, would not have tolerated a definition of “useful” in terms of “making metal ducks that shit,” and William James would have. Peirce was concerned not with practical effects generally but with those effects that are heuristically practical, ie scientific practices, etc., in the broadest sense. (Hence my argument with Dave.) <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Nick <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Nick <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Nicholas Thompson<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Clark University<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>ThompNickSon2@gmail.com<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Friam <friam-bounces@redfish.com> On Behalf Of u?l? ?<br>Sent: Monday, April 20, 2020 1:04 PM<br>To: FriAM <friam@redfish.com><br>Subject: Re: [FRIAM] IS: "...useful". WAS:: whackadoodles go mainstream!</p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Sure, I'll bite, since I'm waiting for criticism of a recent status report.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>My naïve first attempt is to say that which is useful is that which *I* can use to make things do what I want them to do. E.g. program a computer to output data with a particular quality. In comparing 1) the attribution of qualities of the world to a mysterious god to 2) picking apart the features of the world and identifying ways to manipulate them, then it seems clear to me the latter helps me manipulate the world more than the former.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Even *if* I were trying to be a cult leader, I think I'd find more success being a Dr. Oz (or Gwyneth Paltrow or Wim Hoff) than a Reverend Moon. Manipulating the world through the *mediation* of a huge swath of morons seems difficult *if* your targets are particular outcomes. Blanket, vague "burn it down" or "trend toward True" manipulation is *not* what I would deem useful. Making a metal duck that shits is the type of thing I'm after. Things that help me construct metal, shitting ducks are useful.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>On 4/20/20 11:51 AM, <a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>thompnickson2@gmail.com</span></a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> If ever you wanted to explore what you meant by "useful" in your message below, I am your man. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Such a discussion would get at the soul of pragmatism, the war between Peirce and his benefactor William James, and my war with Eric Charles concerning whether we should talk not about the practical consequences of our conceptions but about their "practicial" consequence, i.e., their consequences for practices of discovery. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>--<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span style='font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif'>☣</span> uǝlƃ<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam unsubscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</span></a> <o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>