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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 5/5/20 4:38 PM, Frank Wimberly
wrote:<br>
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<div>"We record/observe *all* your behavior down to the minutest
level... " is impossible.<br>
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<p>Some of my work (not so much these days) has been in light-field
capture as well as holography... so my metaphorical target domain
comes from a fairly specific technical perspective.<br>
</p>
<p>Of course "recording/observing *all* of your behaviour" is as
impossible as it is impossible to "record all impinging
interfering light waves as silver halide crystals on a
photographic plate", so even a high-quality hologram is just a
"fuzzy facsimile"... the point isn't fidelity as much as it is
that a lot more *qualities* of information are available to BE
recorded than we normally record (e.g. focusing nominally parallel
light rays reflected off an object through a lens onto a similar
photographic plate). The hologram doesn't necessarily contain
more data (limited by the grain size of the silver-halide film and
the quality of the optical elements moving the light around as
well as the wavelength of the light) than a conventional
photograph, it is just *qualitatively* more interesting/complex
than the impingement of a planar wave onto a plane (or the
integrated fusing of hundreds of such captures from hundreds of
lenses or pinholes) (think phased array radar in the optical
spectra). <br>
</p>
<p>I defer to your broader/deeper experience and awareness of
conventional psychology, but I suppose what I was alluding to is
the difference between a "gestalt" and a "diagnosis"? A good
intuitive therapist, NLP practitioner, car-salesman, "psychic",
etc. (I contend) can "read" a LOT more than a bureaucrat
screening for a particular purpose. I'm simply borrowing Glen's
reference to "holographically" to elaborate the nature of that.</p>
<p>Meanwhile, I agree strongly with you that a great deal of your
internal state (second by second) is operationally opaque to me
and everyone else who might try to observe, including Marcus when
he wires you up with Neuralink hardware or locks you into an fMRI
while you fantasize about your next car or reminisce about a
favorite meal/libation you enjoyed 37 years ago while apprehending
the Aurora Borealis at winter solstice in a northern Finland
resort that overlooks the Russian Landscape across the border. I
also know from my own musings and reminiscings that *my* memories
can vary from time to time (and from an objective observation like
a microphone or camera capturing those aspects of a situation).</p>
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cite="mid:CAA5dAfq2Df27vcHFAVE9C_iU+mOeMf8Wo0YBzDNw_+07kbQLsQ@mail.gmail.com">
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<div><br>
<div data-smartmail="gmail_signature">---<br>
Frank C. Wimberly<br>
140 Calle Ojo Feliz, <br>
Santa Fe, NM 87505<br>
<br>
505 670-9918<br>
Santa Fe, NM</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, May 5, 2020, 4:13
PM Steven A Smith <<a href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">sasmyth@swcp.com</a>> wrote:<br>
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<p><br>
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<div>On 5/5/20 3:04 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:<br>
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<div dir="ltr">
<div>Dammit, Nick. I can and frequently do spend
hours planning, remembering, composing emails,
fantasizing about my next car, etc without
exhibiting any remarkable behavior beyond
eyeblinking, touching my face (don't!), crossing
and uncrossing my legs. We've been through this
before but what is my latest plan about what to
do when my auto lease is up? No one knows but me
despite your claim that I don't have private
access to these kinds of things.</div>
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<p>And following (weakly I am sure) Glen's reference to
"holographically", I believe that if we record/observe
*all* of your behaviour down to the minutest detail,
we can learn a LOT about that inner state. If we
had that data from the *last* time you approached
buying a new car (maybe years out) we might recognize
the specific patterns of leg-crossing and eye-blinking
and chair-leaning that go with fantasizing about that
muscle-car inspired anti-proton powered 6 wheel-drive
hub-motor flying car you have been jonesing on! <br>
</p>
<p>I'm somewhat with Glen (as I understand him in this
conversation) on the ideation that inner and outer is
somewhat mutable. Sometimes the 6-rotor flying
drone-car I fantasize (and blame on Frank) flitting
around in is *part of* *me* and other times it is what
I interface *to* and *it* interfaces (mostly) to the
air (and sometimes to the water, the ground, and
unfortunately a tall tree here and there). When I
am composing a message *to* this august body named
FriAM, I often think of youse alls as "external" to
me, but if I'm talking to one of the philistines in my
life who do NOT spend all their time talking/thinking
about these kinds of things (whatever these kinds
are), I sometimes think of myself as being *of* "the
FriAM" rather than "in the FriAM" (or is that FriAM
pan?).</p>
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<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, May 5,
2020 at 1:36 PM <<a
href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi,Glen,<br>
<br>
Careful. Isn't the formulation "inner world"
entirely contradictory? <br>
<br>
N<br>
<br>
Nicholas Thompson<br>
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology<br>
Clark University<br>
<a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</a><br>
<a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
On Behalf Of u?l? ?<br>
Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2020 12:50 PM<br>
To: FriAM <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Warring Darwinians for Glen,
Steve<br>
<br>
However, I think we can come up with a (maybe
someday) testable hypothesis based on hidden
states. In principle, if EricC's principle is
taken seriously, the inner world of a black box
device will be *completely* represented on its
surface (ala the holographic principle). Any
information not exhibited by a black box's
*behavior* will be lost/random. <br>
<br>
This implies something about the compressibility
and information content of the black box's
behavior, right? <br>
<br>
On 5/5/20 10:38 AM, Prof David West wrote:<br>
> This does not advance an argument against the
possibility of a computer thinking — merely an
assertion that "behavior" is not a valid basis
upon which to argue that they do.<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
☣ uǝlƃ<br>
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<br>
-- <br>
<div dir="ltr">Frank Wimberly<br>
140 Calle Ojo Feliz<br>
Santa Fe, NM 87505<br>
505 670-9918</div>
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