<!DOCTYPE html><html><head><title></title><style type="text/css">#qt p.qt-MsoNormal{margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif;}
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p.MsoNormal,p.MsoNoSpacing{margin:0}</style></head><body><div style="font-family:Arial;">behavior:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">1) t<span><span>he way in which one acts or conducts oneself, especially toward others</span></span><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><span><span>2) the way in which an animal or person acts in response to a particular situation or stimulus.</span></span><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><span><span>3) the way in which a natural phenomenon or a machine works or functions</span></span><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><span><span>Ignoring the first definition, is there a qualitative difference between the behavior attributed to a human being or animal and that attributed to the machine or natural phenomena? I believe there is.</span></span><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Machine "behavior" is either a metaphor or an error of anthropomorphism. This is true, I believe, whether one speaks of a computer's UI (the computer is but a lump and sans any behavior) or a robot.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Alan Kay and Seymour Papert speak of the "user illusion" — the illusion that the computer is thinking or behaving or acting as if it were intelligent, a turtle dragging its tail to draw a line, etc. The key word is "illusion." Papert, incidentally was a student and protege of Jean Piaget, a psychologist.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">This does not advance an argument against the possibility of a computer thinking — merely an assertion that "behavior" is not a valid basis upon which to argue that they do.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">davew<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><span><span></span></span><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div>On Tue, May 5, 2020, at 9:45 AM, thompnickson2@gmail.com wrote:<br></div><blockquote type="cite" id="qt" style=""><div class="qt-WordSection1"><p class="qt-MsoNormal">Hi, Dave,<br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal">So the same may be said of brains, right? Brain’s don’t behave. <br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal">Where are you going with this? <br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal">N<br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">Nicholas Thompson<br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal">Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology<br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal">Clark University<br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"><span style="color:rgb(5, 99, 193);">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"><span style="color:rgb(5, 99, 193);">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p><div><div style="border-right-color:currentcolor;border-right-style:none;border-right-width:medium;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-style:none;border-bottom-width:medium;border-left-color:currentcolor;border-left-style:none;border-left-width:medium;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1;border-top-color:rgb(225, 225, 225);border-top-style:solid;border-top-width:1pt;padding-top:3pt;padding-right:0in;padding-bottom:0in;padding-left:0in;"><p class="qt-MsoNormal"></p><div><b>From:</b> Friam <friam-bounces@redfish.com> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Prof David West<br></div><div><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 5, 2020 5:27 AM<br></div><div><b>To:</b> friam@redfish.com<br></div><div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Warring Darwinians for Glen, Steve<br></div><p></p></div></div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">Allow Nick to say "a computer behaves as if it is thinking, therefore it is thinking."</span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">How does a computer behave? Or, what is a computer's behavior? I am looking at my computer - actually four of them (iPhone, tablet, laptop, and desktop) and the only behavior I see any of them exhibiting is precisely identical to the behavior of the glass paperweight that also occupies space on my desk.</span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">What is this thinking behavior y'all are ascribing to the computer? Am I the only one that cannot see it?</span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">davew</span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">On Mon, May 4, 2020, at 9:34 PM, <a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a> wrote:<br></p></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;" id="qt-qt"><div><p class="qt-qt-msonormal1">Yup. That’s what he would say. What <b><i>persuades</i></b> you that a super competent computer can’t think? Can a dog think? How would a Martian convince you that it (he, she) can think? <br></p><p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"> <br></p><p class="qt-qt-msonormal1">Nick<br></p><p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"> <br></p><p class="qt-qt-msonormal1">Nicholas Thompson<br></p><p class="qt-qt-msonormal1">Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology<br></p><p class="qt-qt-msonormal1">Clark University<br></p><p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"><span style="color:rgb(5, 99, 193);">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><br></p><p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"><span style="color:rgb(5, 99, 193);">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><br></p><p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"> <br></p><p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"> <br></p><p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"> <br></p><div style="border-right-style:none;border-right-width:medium;border-bottom-style:none;border-bottom-width:medium;border-left-style:none;border-left-width:medium;border-top-color:rgb(225, 225, 225);border-top-style:solid;border-top-width:1pt;padding-top:3pt;padding-right:0in;padding-bottom:0in;padding-left:0in;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-left-color:currentcolor;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1;"><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Frank Wimberly<br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><b>Sent:</b> Monday, May 4, 2020 9:08 PM<br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a>><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Warring Darwinians for Glen, Steve<br></p></div></div><p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"> <br></p><div><p class="qt-qt-msonormal1">Maybe I missed something that makes this redundant but if a highschool student asked me what the <i>hard problem</i> is I would say: There appears to be no limit to how competent computers can be. They seem to be able to do just about anything that people think requires thought. But I am persuaded that they can't think. What makes the difference between thinking people and hypercompetent computers? <br></p><div><p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"> <br></p></div><div><p class="qt-qt-msonormal1">Nick would say if it behaves as if it thinks then it thinks. I think.<br></p></div><div><p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"> <br></p></div><div><p class="qt-qt-msonormal1">Frank<br></p></div></div><p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"> <br></p><div><div><p class="qt-qt-msonormal1">On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 7:50 PM Steven A Smith <<a href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com">sasmyth@swcp.com</a>> wrote:<br></p></div><blockquote style="border-top-style:none;border-top-width:medium;border-right-style:none;border-right-width:medium;border-bottom-style:none;border-bottom-width:medium;border-left-color:rgb(204, 204, 204);border-left-style:solid;border-left-width:1pt;padding-top:0in;padding-right:0in;padding-bottom:0in;padding-left:6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5pt;border-top-color:currentcolor;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1;"><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">I thought this was a support group for recovering (or just<br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">self-indulgent) metaphorists... you mean it's not? Why do I feel like<br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">I'm in a scene from "Fight Club"? I guess that would make me more of<br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">an allegorist?<br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">> Is it? You people can't help yourselves. It's compulsive. You might want to get some help for that.<br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">> <br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">> On 5/4/20 10:47 AM, Frank Wimberly wrote:<br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">>> Choosing one's rifle is so concrete. It makes me want to run out and blow away a few cacti. Oh, it's a metaphor!<br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...<br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam" target="_blank">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">unsubscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/FRIAM-COMIC" target="_blank">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/<br>FRIAM-COMIC</a> <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a></p></div></blockquote></div><p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"> <br></p><div><p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"> <br></p></div><p class="qt-qt-msonormal1">--<br></p><div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">Frank Wimberly<br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">140 Calle Ojo Feliz<br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">Santa Fe, NM 87505<br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">505 670-9918<br></p></div></div></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...<br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam<br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">unsubscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> <br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p></div></blockquote><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span></span><br></p></div></div><div>.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...<br></div><div>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br></div><div>Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam<br></div><div>unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com<br></div><div>archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/<br></div><div>FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ <br></div><div><br></div></blockquote><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div></body></html>