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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 5/13/20 9:52 PM, Marcus Daniels
wrote:<br>
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cite="mid:E921F7C3-BCE6-4AE7-A7A0-566E21743579@snoutfarm.com">
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<p class="MsoNormal">Experiment with a modern implementation of
generative adversarial networks for a while and I think you’ll
begin to feel less smug about the superiority of first
principles – sort of like a craft of Colonial Williamsburg.
Computer, just get me the equations and spare the drama.</p>
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<p>My mother was the source (vehicle) of many aphorisms, some of
which I found particularly maddening. <br>
</p>
<blockquote>
<p>"If you can't tell (the difference), it doesn't matter!" <br>
</p>
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<p>was perhaps the most notable and I suppose an archetypal example
of vernacular pragmatism (Nick).<br>
</p>
<p>I *think* this discussion (or this subthread) has devolved to
suggesting that predictive power is the only use of modeling (and
simulation) whilst explanatory power is not (it is just drama?).
<br>
</p>
<p>It is not my feeling or experience or intuition that the
explanatory power (illusion) of deriving things from first
principles is unimportant or irrelevant, but I don't know that I
have anything but "a strong feeling" to back that up. When I
went to college I had a modestly broad command of math and basic
science which I found very satisfying as a basis for (thinking I
did) understand a lot about the world as it unfolded around me
(dust-devils, thunderstorms, motorcycle accidents, auto mechanics,
mechanical constructions) but as I learned calculus, I somehow
felt like I'd been handed a whole new toolkit... a way to peel
back the covers from the myriad equations that had been handed to
me with no real explanatory power. <br>
</p>
<p>Having the equations of motion had seemed like "enough" until I
began to explore their derivations. Most of my peers were in
engineering and while they also were learning calculus, they did
not seem to have the same fascination... they were much less
interested (in my apprehension) in "understanding things" than
they were "predicting things" and even prediction was in service
to the utility of "building a thing". In physics, each layer of
more fundamental theory, no matter how hard or obscure it was, was
very satisfying. Again, my engineering peers were puzzled by why
I would care about relativity or quantum mechanics when they saw
so little (if any) application for it. Of course today, nearly 50
years later, the applications are pervasive in the more advanced
engineering applications (electrooptics, materials science, etc.)</p>
<p>I'll be interested to see how (if?) this distinction unfolds with
others here. Maybe my mother was right "if you can't tell the
difference, it doesn't matter".</p>
<p>- Steve<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
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cite="mid:E921F7C3-BCE6-4AE7-A7A0-566E21743579@snoutfarm.com">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span></b><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Friam
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a> on behalf of
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com">"thompnickson2@gmail.com"</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"><thompnickson2@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>Reply-To: </b>The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
Coffee Group <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"><friam@redfish.com></a><br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 8:40 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee
Group' <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"><friam@redfish.com></a><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [FRIAM] PSC Tornado Visualization
(2008) [720p] - YouTube<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Old Philosophical Joke: <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Deep in a remote valley lived a tribe that
had never been in contact with the modern world … except for
one monastery which corresponded with Greenwich village to get
the sunrise tables. The monks would get up 15 minutes early
and sound a bell, which the villagers believed was the cause
of the sun rising. It was said, “The monks awakened the sun
from his slumbers.” Because of this belief, offerings of
every kind were left by the village on the steps of the
monastery, and the monks grew fat and happy. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">In the course of the annual correspondence
to get the new sunrise tables from Greenwich, one of the
British scientists questioned the morality of the scam the
monks were running. The monks responded, “As long as they get
their sunrise on time, who cares?”<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I care. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Another old Philosophical Joke: <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">A man who claimed to be able to fly,
announced on his facebook page that he was going to
demonstrate his skill by jumping off the top balcony of a
residential tower. Psychologists were stationed at each
balcony below with stop watches and clipboards to document his
behavior during his “flight”. As he went by each successive
balcony he was heard to say, “So far, so good.”
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">His widow cared. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Your query, Marcus, highlights the
difference between philosophical pragmatism and the vernacular
kind.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nick <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nicholas Thompson<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Emeritus Professor of Ethology and
Psychology<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Clark University<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#0563C1">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#0563C1">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a> <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Marcus Daniels<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 13, 2020 9:23 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee
Group <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"><friam@redfish.com></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] PSC Tornado Visualization
(2008) [720p] - YouTube<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nick writes:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">“The result looks so much like iconic
tornado vids that we wannabee tornado chasers idolize that one
suspects that the video was back constructed from that film,
rather than developing organically from the physics.”<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Suppose the equations were extracted, or the behavior
re-generated, from a deep neural net (or whatever automated
machine learning thing), but nonetheless were predictive of
other tornados. One might reasonably ask, “Who cares?”<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Marcus<o:p></o:p></p>
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