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<p class="MsoNormal">Oh you mean an ODE.. <ducks/></p>
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</blockquote>
One of my favorite poetic forms IS the "ode". In particular
Neruda's "Ode to Common Things" and I DO think that many of what
Nick is calling "ideographic" stories as acting somewhat as an ode
of this type. On the other hand, the ODE of calculus is not as apt
as a PDE for gesturing at the inner-relations between sub-elements
of a story or suite of stories being descriptive (such as a small
band of (modern?) hominids who somehow manage to be the only ones to
push their genes forward)? Systems Dynamics models are coupled
collections of ODEs and capture much of what I think these types of
stories capture: the relations between things and their
*behaviour*, each in terms of the other(s).<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:936CF3C2-16D1-4C70-9D68-781A98449223@snoutfarm.com">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span></b><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Friam
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a> on behalf of Prof David
West <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm"><profwest@fastmail.fm></a><br>
<b>Reply-To: </b>The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
Coffee Group <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"><friam@redfish.com></a><br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, May 19, 2020 at 9:30 AM<br>
<b>To: </b><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">"friam@redfish.com"</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"><friam@redfish.com></a><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [FRIAM] Miller, miller moths
everywhere...<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Nick is a
big fan of scientific story - at least "popular science"
conveyed with stories - ala "Private Lives of Garden
Birds" by Calvin Simonds.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">davew<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, May 19, 2020, at 10:13 AM, <a
href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt" id="qt">
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1">Steve,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msonormal1">Re stories, that’s probably why I
was drawn to Darwinism. Every Darwinian explanation, no
matter how sophisticated, is a story, a historical
narrative, arising from plausible suppositions about the
way things were. Last time I read the literature, the
mitochondrial data on humans suggested that we arose from
a single, smallish, group in southern Africa. If that’s
not an idiographic (as opposed to nomothetic) account, I
don’t know what is.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msonormal1">Nick<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1">Nicholas Thompson<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msonormal1">Emeritus Professor of Ethology
and Psychology<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msonormal1">Clark University<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><a
href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#0563C1">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><a
href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#0563C1">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a> <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Steve Smith<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 19,
2020 9:04 AM<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM]
Miller, miller moths everywhere...<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Nick -<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I *like* this kind of anecdotal/vernacular science. I
think Glen might refer to these stories/ideas as "just so
stories" because they seem to be post-hoc fitting of
simple yet in some sense apt models to anecdotal data
gathered ad-hoc but widely. I think I understand (and
agree) with his (implied) judgment of them as being "real
science" but they smack of something more than "wishful
thinking", maybe "whimsical thinking"? And a sort of
proto-science. Or a collective form of knowledge/wisdom
formation which lacks the formal rigor of modern science.
Related to what Dave appeals to with us perhaps in Jung
and other ideas of collective consciousness. A step away
from believing that the cosmos and everyday life are
ordered by a (the) angry/benevolent god(esses) toward
believing something perhaps equally absurd, that
everything is ordered by mathematics.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>My father was second-generation college educated... with
a BS in biology preparing him for an advanced degree in
Forestry (soil and range science), and his parents before
him both held BS degrees in Geology. But they were all
still rooted in a style of understanding the world
(minerals, plants and animals, and people) which was
roughly animistic... they all still lived physically close
to the earth and virtually all of their relatives were
still living in the hills and hollers of Appalachia. This
could easily explain why I "like" the anecdotal/vernacular
and distrust the *over* application of mathematics.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I've rattled on before about the *explanatory* power of
models and the hypotheses they embody vs *predictive* or
*communicative* or *descriptive* or even
*inspirational*. These are not orthogonal, but I think
still useful... a "descriptive" model of the utlity/power
of scientific thinking/modeling?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>- Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>FWIW... re: Jon's report on their nutritive value, my
young chickens (6 weeks today?) have been foraging in our
courtyard for about a week during the day. At first they
showed significant interest in the flies that would
occasion their feeder, but seemed to learn quickly that
they were not fast enough to catch them, and soon
discovered the myriad ground insects that they could find
by pecking and scratching. I was sitting on a low wall
next to a couple of them... they seem to like the company
of humans and will come close and do their foraging near
me, even though I rarely hand feed them. I looked down
and one was swallowing a very large grey-brown object
which I am now sure was a miller. The miller moth
infestation/epidemic/peak at my house (near the Rio
Grande) seems to have lagged that of the one in Santa Fe
and even just up the Pojoaque Valley where people have
been reporting the deluge for weeks. Ours just started a
few days ago.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Speaking of anecdotal and just-so science stories. I
find it fascinating to note that these birds, supposedly
not THAT removed from their wild ancestors are constructed
from a single *large enough to eat for breakfast* egg-cell
in about 20 days and emerge almost fully able to survive
alone (though they benefit from the warmth and protection
and guidance of a mother hen, or some people with a
heat-lamp and some agri-industrially formulated food and
our own curiosity). And then, not too much later, they
begin to "shed an egg" nearly daily (if you keep taking
them away) which if fertilized, would repeat the
construction, growth process right in front of my eyes.
Aside from their daily egg-gift, I look forward to their
help in insect control in my garden.... I can tolerate
many pests in the garden but some years we get
grasshoppers and squash bugs, each who can decimate a
crop. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I've always enjoyed watching the Sphynx/Hummingbird moths
around the homestead, but did not know their larval form
was the "dreaded" tomato worm. Last year, I was
surprised to see that along with my tomatoes, they had
discovered the volunteer datura that come up here and
there around the property and two or three had ganged up
on one plant and stripped it bare of leaves. I wondered
at how their metabolism handled the kind of alkaloids that
humans (and cattle?) experience as "loco weed". The
datura, with it's heavily cholorphylled and thick stems
seemed to survive just fine and put out a fresh bounty of
(smaller?) leaves and returned to it's course of producing
flowers to be pollinated by (also the sphynx?) and then a
seedpod to lead to this year's surprise sprouts?!<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="qt-msonormal1">Hi, Merle,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msonormal1">Are you sure it’s not 19 years?
The standard “take” on insect eruptions is (used to be?)
that they occur on a cycle of prime numbers to make it
harder for creatures with shorter cycles to “track”
them. See
<a
href="https://www.newyorker.com/tech/annals-of-technology/the-cicadas-love-affair-with-prime-numbers"
moz-do-not-send="true">
https://www.newyorker.com/tech/annals-of-technology/the-cicadas-love-affair-with-prime-numbers</a>
for a pretty thin introduction to the idea.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msonormal1">N<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msonormal1">Nicholas Thompson<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msonormal1">Emeritus Professor of Ethology
and Psychology<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msonormal1">Clark University<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><a
href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#0563C1">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><a
href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#0563C1">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in
0in;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-left-color:currentcolor;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<friam-bounces@redfish.com></a> <b>On
Behalf Of </b>Merle Lefkoff<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Sent:</b> Monday, May 18, 2020
10:01 PM<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>To:</b> The Friday Morning
Applied Complexity Coffee Group
<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><friam@redfish.com></a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM]
Miller, miller moths everywhere...<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">My
son in Boulder says they get the "infestation"
right on the dot every 20 years.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">They
are also important pollinators. </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1">On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 9:57
PM Jon Zingale <<a
href="mailto:jonzingale@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">jonzingale@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-top-color:currentcolor;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1">
<div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#333333">Wow,
they are everywhere! According to wikipedia:</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Garamond",serif;color:#333333"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#202122">Army
cutworms are one of the richest foods for
predators, such as </span></span><span
class="size"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Garamond",serif;color:#333333"><a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_bear" target="_blank"
title="Brown bear" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0B0080">brown
bears</span></a></span></span><span
class="size"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#202122">,
in this ecosystem, where up to 72 per cent
of the moth's body weight is fat, thus
making it more calorie-rich than elk or
deer.</span></span><span class="size"><sup
id="qt-gmail-m_-6215238948079029398gmail-cite_ref-10"><span
style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#202122"><a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_cutworm#cite_note-10"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:#0B0080">[10]</span></a></span></sup></span><span
class="size"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#202122"> This
is the highest known body fat percentage of
any animal.</span></span><span class="size"><sup
id="qt-gmail-m_-6215238948079029398gmail-cite_ref-11"><span
style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#202122"><a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_cutworm#cite_note-11"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:#0B0080">[11]</span></a></span></sup></span><span
class="size"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Garamond",serif;color:#333333"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Garamond",serif;color:#333333"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#333333">And
according to the New Mexican:</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#333333"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#333333">`</span></span><span
class="size"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:#333333">.</span></span><span
class="font"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#333333">..
they do not carry disease, Formby said, and
they’re not the type of moth that will get
into your clothes closet and start shredding
your new camel hair jacket.</span></span><span
class="size"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:#333333">`</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#333333"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><span class="size"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#333333"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-- --- .-. . .-.. --- -.-. -.-
... -..-. .- .-. . -..-. - .... . -..-. . ... ...
. -. - .. .- .-.. -..-. .-- --- .-. -.- . .-. ...<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">FRIAM Applied Complexity Group
listserv<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn
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target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
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<p class="MsoNormal">FRIAM-COMIC <a
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</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1">--<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Merle Lefkoff,
Ph.D.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">President, Center
for Emergent Diplomacy<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="http://emergentdiplomacy.org"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">emergentdiplomacy.org</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal1">Santa Fe, New
Mexico, USA<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="mailto:merlelefoff@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">merlelefkoff@gmail.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">-- --- .-. . .-.. --- -.-. -.- ... -..-. .- .-. . -..-. - .... . -..-. . ... ... . -. - .. .- .-.. -..-. .-- --- .-. -.- . .-. ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a>
archives: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a>
FRIAM-COMIC <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a>
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