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Frank -<br>
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<div dir="ltr">My first reaction: I don't think "bent space
time" is a metaphor. I don't use metaphor in thought because I
know exactly what I "mean". <br>
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unless space-time is a plastic/elastic solid (solid aether?), I'm
not sure what the phrase means if not metaphorically? If I want to
talk about space-time in this way more rigorously, I would not
"bend" it, I would describe it's geometry as non-euclidean. I
would claim that we metaphorically "bend" space-time *relative* to
the idealized euclidean space we all (most all?) apprehend somewhat
directly (though our visual system apprehends space in perspective
geometry where objects are consistently smaller by a factor of 1/r
where r is their distance from us). Sound is somewhat more
complicated but also has a 1/r component. <br>
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<div dir="ltr"> I'm not even sure I use language in thought except
when I'm planning an email, for instance.</div>
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Frank/Eric -<br>
<p>I do agree that the idea of "metaphors all the way down" shift a
little across this boundary. A lot of my own "thinking" is not
explicitly linguistic, but it *is* imagistic and involves analogs
(analogies?), much like an analog computer (of which there are
many modes and examples, not all electronic) operates perhaps?
I think I related here that I was dreaming in "celestial
mechanics" for a while. I don't know enough details about
celestial mechanics to believe I was really honestly "calculating"
orbits and orbit-changes, etc... in any useful/literal way, I was
just "experiencing" what it *might* be like to somewhat directly
control thrusters with conserved energy and reaction mass whilst
"feeling" energetic isoclines in delta-v/gravity space. <br>
</p>
<p>I didn't experience "bent space" so much as the same kind of
dissonance I feel when I try to think of great-circle navigation
on a map or even more entertaining/complicated, whilst in the
context of winds (sailing/flying) and currents/tides. My visual
site-lines serve me fairly well, up to the curvature of the earth,
which would continue to serve me well in interplanetary scale
locomotion/navigation, yet if my propulsion method includes a
solar-sail (and/or magnetic induction aspects)<br>
</p>
<p>I think that "metaphor" is used more in science to communicate
with outsiders and as shorthand (e.g. "bent" spacetime) among
insiders. This is where I will defer my language to Glen's
appeals to switch to (my idea of what he would ask for) analogy,
formal analogy, mathematical models, formal mappings within
mathematical formulations. My only shot for metaphor at this
level is to refer to Lakoff/Nunez's "Where Mathematics Comes From"
which I claim provides a good argument for how even mathematics is
technically/fundamentally metaphorical. But rather than insist on
that (for no good reason), I am happy to converge on the use of
the other (analogy, model, mapping) terms. I think Glen asked me
for something like this directly offlist many months ago and I
can't remember if I actually said out loud that I was accepting
that. (I hope I am characterizing Glen's position and our
interaction accurately).</p>
<p>- Steve<br>
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cite="mid:CAA5dAfrwjMnHU+cxfO7stZqQDr8_k7O=ed6p8OdAfiqy-vU7OQ@mail.gmail.com">Eric
Charles wrote:<br>
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<div dir="ltr">I'm not sure I follow all the different
sticking points this conversation has developed... but I'm
gonna risk punch the tar baby anyway...
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<div>I'm not sure Glen's point about "xyz" gets us very
far. Sure, you can call anything you want by any label
you want. I'm not sure anyone disputes that. But after
that there remain three-ish different issues, which I
think Nick tends to muddle: </div>
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<div>1) The role of metaphor in communication.</div>
<div>2) The role of metaphor in thought.</div>
<div>3) The role of metaphor in science.</div>
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<div>Did I punch the tar baby enough? Am I hopelessly
stuck? Or did I possibly help accomplish anything?</div>
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<p>Tar Babies R Us! <br>
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<p>I think you accomplished something for me... your 3 domains above
are useful to me and I hope my response registered somewhat to
them, with Frank's counter/example of "bent space" is helpful to
you or others.<br>
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<p>I will leave the "toe/tow the line" metaphors alone here. I find
the *expanded* etymology of metaphors fascinating, especially when
juxtoposed phonographically as is this pair, but do think it is
probably a distraction from the point at hand.</p>
<p>- Steve<br>
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