<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Nick, for the record, and this will not change from my end:<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Your right to be interested in whatever you are interested in is sacrosanct, here or in any other forum. I don\u2019t think there are thread boundaries on that, though there are all the normal courtesies which I see more clearly for a while after I transgress one.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Eric</div><div class=""><br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On May 30, 2020, at 1:03 PM, <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" class="">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>> <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" class="">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">All \u2013<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">I feel norm formation going on here, and it is making me a bit nervous. I am not sure what follows from that, but there it is. I thing that we at FriAM have long worked the boundary between work and play. I think that\u2019s where the best work is done. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">But this is my thread, right? Can a man bust his own thread? <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class=""><i class=""><u class="">I d o n t t h I n k s o</u></i></b>. I want to talk about metaphor. And it\u2019s relation to models. And it\u2019 relation to the concept of intentionality. The question is, To what extent do our norms allow me to bring those concerns to other threads. And the answer I am hearing from many of you is, \u201cLess than I have been\u201d.<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Well, I will do my best. But, for instance, I think the \u201cwork\u201d we did on \u201cstrawman\u201d was tremendously important. In my introductory graduate lectures at Berkeley, where, one by one, the the grey-backed gorillas of the department laid down the law. Somebody, I think David Krech, announced that if \u201cI say that the number of rat turds left by a rat in an open field maze is \u201canxiety\u201d, then that is what anxiety IS for the purposes of my research, and there\u2019s no more discussion to be had.\u201d And even in the tenuous position of a first year graduate student I knew that was wrong. Meanings have momentum. Words have meaning that is independent of their users. I have fought for 50 years to rescue \u2018teleonomy\u2019 (=natural design) from the dualistic thieves that abducted it. And SteveG and I could be thought of as battling for nigh a decade and half about which specification of the metaphor of natural selection is best for the purposes of understanding natural design. (I thought we made a lot of progress on that issue today.) Much of what we do in scientific discourse is fight over metaphors and we need to develop methods for fighting fairly, skillfully, and expeditiously. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">I don\u2019t think I have EVER introduced the idea of metaphor in a conversation where I didn\u2019t think a clarification or specification of the metaphors implicit in our conversation might move the discussion forward. I may be playing with words but I am not<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">just</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>playing with words. God knows, I may have been WRONG in many cases, but I absolutely defend the idea that attention to the metaphors at play in a conversation is often essential to any development of understanding or convergence of opinion. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Is it<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">always?</i> No. Of course not. And I will try to be more careful about that.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Thanks, as always, for all your thoughts. My life would not be half of what it is without them. Really. It\u2019s perhaps pathetic for me to admit that, but it\u2019s true.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Nick<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Nicholas Thompson<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Clark University<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(5, 99, 193);" class="">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(5, 99, 193);" class="">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class="">From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>David Eric Smith<br class=""><b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, May 29, 2020 9:11 PM<br class=""><b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">friam@redfish.com</a>><br class=""><b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [FRIAM] Metaphor [POSSIBLE DISTRACTON FROM]: privacy games<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Hi Jon,<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">No, actually not any issue with any of what you had posted, as also just affirmation toward various historical posts by Glen. <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Yes, sorry about a thread-rudeness. I had sort of dropped a chunk of something that had been accumulating for a week in the middle of your thread which was in the coarse of solving other problems, where it didn\u2019t belong. Partly this was because yours had been the latest snapshot, partly it was because the overall frame you and Glen and Steve are building is one that I would like to think of my own additions as finding a place in, and partly I was probably using the measured tone of this sub-thread as cover, since my own was rather crabby and aggressive. Strange that it seemed formally impolite to me, to use your thread as a point of departure and not direct the salutation to you, while I blew past the fact that it was substantively rude to use the thread, rather than to participate in it.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Very good. Thanks for calling me on this,<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Eric<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><br class=""><br class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class="" type="cite"><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">On May 30, 2020, at 9:43 AM, Jon Zingale <<a href="mailto:jonzingale@gmail.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">jonzingale@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51);" class="">Eric,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51);" class="">I am not sure that I disagree with you anywhere, but I am<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51);" class="">unsure whether you are taking issue with me? The proliferation<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51);" class="">of threads are sometimes hard for me to follow, inevitably I mis-<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51);" class="">determine who is talking to whom. Are there places in my writing<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51);" class="">that you would suggest I revisit and reconsider? Pointing things<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51);" class="">out to another can be an expensive and thankless task, so thank<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51);" class="">you in advance.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 12pt; 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