<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">Thanks, Frank. I agree completely. This is a long-standing issue with Nick. I'm glad you point out the similarities.</div><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><font><u style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16.5px;line-height:20px"><br></u></font></div><div dir="ltr"><font><u style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16.5px;line-height:20px"> </u></font><span style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16.5px;line-height:24.75px"> </span>-- Russ Abbott <br>Professor, Computer Science<br>California State University, Los Angeles<br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 10:04 AM Frank Wimberly <<a href="mailto:wimberly3@gmail.com">wimberly3@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">"It is SO evident to me that any conversation, even the most banal and proforma exchange of words, ... that I am blinded its self-evidentness, incapacitated by its obviousness, left without words."<div><br></div><div>That's what I used to say to you about consciousness and having an inner life. </div><div><br></div><div>Frank <br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 10:56 AM <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" target="_blank">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-US"><div><p class="MsoNormal">Steve,<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Craven tho it might be, I am going to desert you on this field of battle. It is SO evident to me that any conversation, even the most banal and proforma exchange of words, is NOT a mere flapping of gums, that I am blinded its self-evidentness, incapacitated by its obviousness, left without words. <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">You’re on your own, buddy. <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Nick <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">Nicholas Thompson<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Clark University<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com" target="_blank">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</a><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/" target="_blank">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</a><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Smith<br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, June 7, 2020 10:39 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam@redfish.com</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] millenarianism<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p>uǝlƃ <span style="font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif">☣</span> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p><blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><pre>The argument I stole from wherever wasn't that talking was a *form* of grooming, but that it *replaced* grooming. Personally, I wouldn't go that far. I'd argue that as soon as we learned to talk, talking became yet-another-sensorimotor-behavior. I.e. talking is in the same category as having sex, punching someone in the face, riding a tandem bicycle, combing lice out of your kid's hair, etc. It's all the same thing.<u></u><u></u></pre></blockquote><p class="MsoNormal">Well corrected... thanks. <u></u><u></u></p><blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><pre>The gripe I have with most people is they reify their "thoughts", give too much primacy to the idea of material-free interaction. Words are nothing *but* flapping gums and banged keys.<u></u><u></u></pre></blockquote><p class="MsoNormal">I will admit that having learned to type at a very early age (by oldSkool standards...14) there is something *like* a visceral satisfaction in banging the keys. When I have forced myself to write longhand (see the anecdote about a first grade teacher breaking a ruler on the knuckles) it can *also* be viscerally satisfying, especially when using a fountain pen on quality paper. And yet I find "nothing more" hyperbolic.<br><br><u></u><u></u></p><blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><pre>So, to Marcus' point, talking and punching are equally manipulative. And to Nick's point, talking to oneself can be very satisfying, like shadow boxing. But fighting an *alive* opponent is always more interesting.<u></u><u></u></pre></blockquote><p>Touche' ! <u></u><u></u></p><p>What about "dancing"? My limited experience with Tae Kwon Do peaked during sparring which with the *right* opponent/partner felt more like Dancing than Fighting. Similarly with fencing (foil only for me, no sabres or broadswords). Neither felt choreographed.<u></u><u></u></p><p>Some of our threads here feel more like squabbling than "dancing"... not quite a melee (usually) even though there are some real free-for-all.<u></u><u></u></p><p>I re-submit my previous question of the role/value/import of "an audience/readership" participation.<u></u><u></u></p><blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><p>SS> In contrast on this (now bent) thread, Marcel Duchamp stated (authoritatively?!):<u></u><u></u></p><p><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(51,51,51);letter-spacing:0.3pt"> “All in all, the creative act is not performed by the artist alone; the spectator brings the work in contact with the external world by deciphering and interpreting its inner qualifications and thus adds his contribution to the creative act,” </span> <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">SS> Many creatives (visual artists, writers, and more obviously performing artists) have agreed with this... the audience "participation" if not "response" is key to their "completion"... I don't know if this maps onto "closure" in CS, but maybe.<u></u><u></u></p></blockquote><p>- Steve<u></u><u></u></p><blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><pre><u></u> <u></u></pre><pre><u></u> <u></u></pre><pre>On 6/6/20 3:06 PM, Steve Smith wrote:<u></u><u></u></pre><blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><pre>Glen has suggested variously that he doesn't believe in communication, and that in humans "dialog is a form of social grooming" (I stand prepared to be corrected for mis-apprehending/stating Glen's positions).<u></u><u></u></pre><pre><u></u> <u></u></pre><pre>I'm inclined to agree with him somewhat, though I DO believe some of our chatter is at least an *attempt to communicate*. So is that *all* we are doing when we blather away here? Or perhaps just Bombastic Careening (nod to Jon)? Mental Masturbation? Dominance Aggression? Random Neuromuscular Spasms?<u></u><u></u></pre></blockquote><pre><u></u> <u></u></pre></blockquote></div></div>- .... . -..-. . ...- --- .-.. ..- - .. --- -. -..-. .-- .. .-.. .-.. -..-. -... . -..-. .-.. .. ...- . -..-. ... - .-. . .- -- . -..<br>
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