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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal>Marcus, <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>All I am asserting is that Every one of us (yep, EVERY SINGLE ONE), substitutes his own judgement in some cases for the judgements of science. We harbor little hunches and act on them, even tho our colleagues in the relevant fields would say that those hunches are foolish. Sometimes, in some domain, EACH AND EVERY one of us plays the role of the child in the Emperor’s New Clothes fable. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Now THERE’S a falsifiable hypothesis. Are you the exception that proves me wrong? <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>N<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Nicholas Thompson<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Clark University<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"><span style='color:#0563C1'>ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"><span style='color:#0563C1'>https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b>From:</b> Friam <friam-bounces@redfish.com> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Marcus Daniels<br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, June 14, 2020 12:53 PM<br><b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] alternative response<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>We don’t all do stuff like that. Stop generalizing like this.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>From: </span></b><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> on behalf of "<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>" <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>><br><b>Reply-To: </b>The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a>><br><b>Date: </b>Sunday, June 14, 2020 at 11:51 AM<br><b>To: </b>'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a>><br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [FRIAM] alternative response<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal>So, Jochen, <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Let it be the case (ex hypothesi) that The Definitive Study (triple blind, a gazillion subjects) has been completed and it has been shown that NEITHER of these extracts has any effect what-so-ever. Would you continue to take them? Why? <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Given that we all do stuff like that, on what ground do we have contempt for tin hat folks and climate deniers. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>N<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Nicholas Thompson<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Clark University<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"><span style='color:#0563C1'>ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"><span style='color:#0563C1'>https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b>From:</b> Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jochen Fromm<br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, June 14, 2020 12:39 PM<br><b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] alternative response<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>My parents sometimes took a herbal medicine named "Echinacin" based on the plant Echinace purpurea to strengthen their immune system. It is harmless. I take it as well occasionally, it is available as drops or pills. Pure herbs, no chemicals. I think the feeling that it might help already helps. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echinacea_purpurea">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echinacea_purpurea</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Valerian extract helps against sleeplessness. It has only mild effects, but it can help if you can not sleep at all. I guess you know both herbs already.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valerian_(herb)">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valerian_(herb)</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>-J.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>-------- Original message --------</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>From: Prof David West <<a href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm">profwest@fastmail.fm</a>> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Date: 6/14/20 20:16 (GMT+01:00) </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>To: <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Subject: Re: [FRIAM] alternative response </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Frank,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>I think the point of the herbalist is not that a herb will attack a virus directly, but that herbals will enhance a person's immune system in general, including ability to defend against viruses. That is a little less farfetched than the idea, I think, your comment was directed towards.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Nick,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Not as a 'scientist' but merely as a professional and in the discipline of software development. I have substituted my own judgement against the mainstream of Software Engineering since 1968 when SE was invented. My determination to do so is simply the fact that I am right and the rest of the world is insanely wrong. :)</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>davew</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Sun, Jun 14, 2020, at 10:11 AM, <a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' id=qt><div><p class=qt-msonormal>Hi, Dave,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-msonormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-msonormal>I am always interested when any of our members – we who are so hard on the “tin hat people” --, departsfrom scientific orthodoxy. What determines when a scientist substitutes his own judgement for that of colleagues in other disciplines? That’s not a rhetorical question. And, having done that, why would on ever go to a doctor again? What about Linus Pauling and vitamin C? <o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-msonormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-msonormal>Has anybody heard from Bruce? Did he make it across? <o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-msonormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-msonormal>Nick<o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-msonormal> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=qt-msonormal>Nicholas Thompson<o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-msonormal>Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology<o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-msonormal>Clark University<o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-msonormal><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-msonormal><a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-msonormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=qt-msonormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=qt-msonormal> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-left-color:currentcolor;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1'><div><p class=MsoNormal><b>From:</b> Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Prof David West<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, June 14, 2020 7:15 AM<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b>Subject:</b> [FRIAM] alternative response<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><p class=qt-msonormal> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=qt-msonormal><span class=font><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>My time in Amsterdam put me dead center in the Vegan / Vegetarian / Herbal / Alternative Medicine community, with whom I still correspond. I received this book and a strong recommendation from them. Most of the people in that community are following the ideas in the book and claim high effectiveness.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal><span class=font><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal><span class=font><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>I have a deep respect for acupuncture and Ayurveda and similar traditions, but am highly skeptical of the "new age" stuff. Nevertheless, in case someone is curious/interested.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal><span class=font><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal><span class=font><b><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Herbal Antivirals: Natural Remedies for Emerging & Resistant Viral Infections</span></b></span><span class=font><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal><span class=font><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal><span class=font><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Take control of your health and learn how to use herbs safely and effectively to prevent and fight off a wide range of viral infections, including coronaviruses, SARS, influenza, encephalitis, dengue fever, and more. Expert herbalist Stephen Harrod Buhner offers this exhaustive guide to understanding the antiviral properties of dozens of herbs, backed up by the most recent research studies and findings. In addition to in-depth profiles of the herbs, Buhner provides complete, step-by-step instructions for obtaining high-quality herbs and preparing and using customized herbal formulations for strengthening the immune system and addressing each virus. Discover how these natural remedies can help keep you and your family healthy and strong.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal><span class=font><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=qt-msonormal><span class=font><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>davew</span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>un/subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></body></html>