<div dir="auto">The Shadow.<div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">And I didn't look it up.<br><br><div data-smartmail="gmail_signature" dir="auto">---<br>Frank C. Wimberly<br>140 Calle Ojo Feliz, <br>Santa Fe, NM 87505<br><br>505 670-9918<br>Santa Fe, NM</div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Jun 14, 2020, 12:43 PM <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="m_-1003286066592938228WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal">Russ, <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">I seem to have confounded two issues, here: Is Engineering ever a science, and is software engineering in any sense a science? Will we ever converge on the Best Way To Build A Bridge? And, Is Software engineering like bridge-building? I guess that in bridge building there are certain harsh realities to which we must conform. Are there any harsh realities to which software engineering must conform? What are they? Does having to conform to harsh realities make an activity a science?<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">“Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men?” [I bet you nobody on this list knows the origin of that quote without looking it up.]<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Nick <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Nicholas Thompson<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Clark University<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"><span style="color:#0563c1">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"><span style="color:#0563c1">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Russ Abbott<br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, June 14, 2020 12:36 PM<br><b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">friam@redfish.com</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] alternative response<u></u><u></u></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">"Science" is generally defined as the study of the natural world. If we take that to exclude man-made artifacts and processes, software engineering (by definition) is not a science.<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">-- Russ Abbott <br>Professor, Computer Science<br>California State University, Los Angeles<u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 11:27 AM Marcus Daniels <<a href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt">< </span></b>So, software engineering is not a science. It’s a culture? There is no right or wrong about it? ><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">In practice, it is a culture. People cling to their beliefs and their habits, like the racists do. Attempts to intervene cause a lot of turmoil. Intervention sometimes seems urgent, but really it is probably better to avoid these cultures.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Marcus<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal">- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<br>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>un/subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> <u></u><u></u></p></blockquote></div></div></div>- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<br>
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