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<p class="MsoNormal">That’s not the hypothetical situation you posed. You said it was rock-solid evidence.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Why should I be worried about, say, smartphones and Wifi transmitting on the order of a watt (a risk which has been studied to death) when my neighbor sprays my lawn with a bucket of Round-up because he sees a weed he doesn’t like? I’m
bathing in the fields from oscillators operating all over the EMF spectrum in my house and neighborhood. I might obsesses if I thought my mesh network bandwidth had dropped, and an overnight transfer wouldn’t finish. Otherwise, I sleep like a baby. I
actually feel unsettled in the wilderness when I can’t hear a fan running!<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">But sure, it is good if people try out far-out ideas from time to time and ignore the conventional wisdom. Are they doing that because they have some personal issue they are working through, or because they actually know why the conventional
wisdom is the conventional wisdom, and believe it is wrong in some specific technical way? Do they think evidence supporting the conventional wisdom is inadequate? (Other than to assail the motives of the those that have collected evidence in the past.)
Perhaps taking herbal remedies is sort of not crazy if one believes there is a verbal tradition that hands down knowledge informally about things that happen to work. The bar for technical explanation is not there, and what qualifies for evidence is differently
constrained. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Marcus<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Friam <friam-bounces@redfish.com> on behalf of "thompnickson2@gmail.com" <thompnickson2@gmail.com><br>
<b>Reply-To: </b>The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com><br>
<b>Date: </b>Sunday, June 14, 2020 at 11:58 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <friam@redfish.com><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [FRIAM] alternative response<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Marcus, <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">All I am asserting is that Every one of us (yep, EVERY SINGLE ONE), substitutes his own judgement in some cases for the judgements of science. We harbor little hunches and act on them, even tho our colleagues in the relevant fields would
say that those hunches are foolish. Sometimes, in some domain, EACH AND EVERY one of us plays the role of the child in the Emperor’s New Clothes fable.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Now THERE’S a falsifiable hypothesis. Are you the exception that proves me wrong?
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">N<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Nicholas Thompson<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Clark University<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"><span style="color:#0563C1">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"><span style="color:#0563C1">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <friam-bounces@redfish.com> <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Marcus Daniels<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, June 14, 2020 12:53 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] alternative response<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">We don’t all do stuff like that. Stop generalizing like this.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> on behalf of "<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>"
<<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Reply-To: </b>The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Sunday, June 14, 2020 at 11:51 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [FRIAM] alternative response</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">So, Jochen, <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Let it be the case (ex hypothesi) that The Definitive Study (triple blind, a gazillion subjects) has been completed and it has been shown that NEITHER of these extracts has any effect what-so-ever. Would you continue to take them? Why?
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Given that we all do stuff like that, on what ground do we have contempt for tin hat folks and climate deniers.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">N<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Nicholas Thompson<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Clark University<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"><span style="color:#0563C1">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"><span style="color:#0563C1">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jochen Fromm<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, June 14, 2020 12:39 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] alternative response<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">My parents sometimes took a herbal medicine named "Echinacin" based on the plant Echinace purpurea to strengthen their immune system. It is harmless. I take it as well occasionally, it is available as drops or pills. Pure herbs, no chemicals.
I think the feeling that it might help already helps. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echinacea_purpurea">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echinacea_purpurea</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Valerian extract helps against sleeplessness. It has only mild effects, but it can help if you can not sleep at all. I guess you know both herbs already.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valerian_(herb)">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valerian_(herb)</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">-J.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">-------- Original message --------</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">From: Prof David West <<a href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm">profwest@fastmail.fm</a>>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Date: 6/14/20 20:16 (GMT+01:00) </span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">To: <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">
friam@redfish.com</a> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Subject: Re: [FRIAM] alternative response
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Frank,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">I think the point of the herbalist is not that a herb will attack a virus directly, but that herbals will enhance a person's immune system in general, including ability to defend against viruses.
That is a little less farfetched than the idea, I think, your comment was directed towards.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Nick,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Not as a 'scientist' but merely as a professional and in the discipline of software development. I have substituted my own judgement against the mainstream of Software Engineering since 1968
when SE was invented. My determination to do so is simply the fact that I am right and the rest of the world is insanely wrong. :)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">davew</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Sun, Jun 14, 2020, at 10:11 AM, <a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="qt-msonormal">Hi, Dave,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msonormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msonormal">I am always interested when any of our members – we who are so hard on the “tin hat people” --, departsfrom scientific orthodoxy. What determines when a scientist substitutes his own judgement for that of colleagues in other disciplines?
That’s not a rhetorical question. And, having done that, why would on ever go to a doctor again? What about Linus Pauling and vitamin C? <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msonormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msonormal">Has anybody heard from Bruce? Did he make it across? <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msonormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msonormal">Nick<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msonormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="qt-msonormal">Nicholas Thompson<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msonormal">Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msonormal">Clark University<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msonormal"><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msonormal"><a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msonormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="qt-msonormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="qt-msonormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Prof David West<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, June 14, 2020 7:15 AM<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Subject:</b> [FRIAM] alternative response<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="qt-msonormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="qt-msonormal"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">My time in Amsterdam put me dead center in the Vegan / Vegetarian / Herbal / Alternative Medicine community, with whom I still correspond. I received this book and a strong
recommendation from them. Most of the people in that community are following the ideas in the book and claim high effectiveness.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="qt-msonormal"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="qt-msonormal"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">I have a deep respect for acupuncture and Ayurveda and similar traditions, but am highly skeptical of the "new age" stuff. Nevertheless, in case someone is curious/interested.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="qt-msonormal"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="qt-msonormal"><span class="font"><b><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Herbal Antivirals: Natural Remedies for Emerging & Resistant Viral Infections</span></b></span><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<p class="qt-msonormal"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="qt-msonormal"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Take control of your health and learn how to use herbs safely and effectively to prevent and fight off a wide range of viral infections, including coronaviruses, SARS, influenza,
encephalitis, dengue fever, and more. Expert herbalist Stephen Harrod Buhner offers this exhaustive guide to understanding the antiviral properties of dozens of herbs, backed up by the most recent research studies and findings. In addition to in-depth profiles
of the herbs, Buhner provides complete, step-by-step instructions for obtaining high-quality herbs and preparing and using customized herbal formulations for strengthening the immune system and addressing each virus. Discover how these natural remedies can
help keep you and your family healthy and strong.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<p class="qt-msonormal"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="qt-msonormal"><span class="font"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">davew</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">un/subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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