<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">Marcus, you write as if you believe that you and others have what we normally call free will. Yet, that's not how science sees the world. I know it'd pretty hard not to act that way. Even so, that would seem to confirm Nick's claim.</div><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><font><u style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16.5px;line-height:20px"><br></u></font></div><div dir="ltr"><font><u style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16.5px;line-height:20px"> </u></font><span style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16.5px;line-height:24.75px"> </span>-- Russ Abbott <br>Professor, Computer Science<br>California State University, Los Angeles<br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 12:30 PM Gary Schiltz <<a href="mailto:gary@naturesvisualarts.com">gary@naturesvisualarts.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>As someone who was a software something-or-other (engineer, developer, whatever) for a decade or three, my view is that the term "software engineering" is perhaps a good goal for the field, but has in practice been somewhat of a flop. Back in the first AI heyday of the late '70s and early '80s when I worked in the field, there was a term used to describe two camps/philosophies when applied to AI developers - "neats" and "scruffies". Neats were known for developing and applying well thought-out theories, while scruffies just wanted to dig in and try stuff. I've never had very good math skills or training, so I gravitated toward being a scruffy myself. It seems to me that there is at least some parallel between "neat vs scruffy" and "engineer vs hacker" mentality in software.</div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 1:21 PM <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" target="_blank">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-US"><div><p class="MsoNormal">Ah. So. Very interesting. <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">So, software engineering is not a science. It’s a culture? There is no right or wrong about it? <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Or, software engineer IS a science. We proceed best if we assume that there will be, in the long run, a right and a wrong about it. <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">What is the validator of rightness and wrongness in software engineering?<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">N<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">Nicholas Thompson<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Clark University<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(5,99,193)">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(5,99,193)">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Prof David West<br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, June 14, 2020 12:16 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam@redfish.com</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] alternative response<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Frank,<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">I think the point of the herbalist is not that a herb will attack a virus directly, but that herbals will enhance a person's immune system in general, including ability to defend against viruses. That is a little less farfetched than the idea, I think, your comment was directed towards.<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Nick,<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Not as a 'scientist' but merely as a professional and in the discipline of software development. I have substituted my own judgement against the mainstream of Software Engineering since 1968 when SE was invented. My determination to do so is simply the fact that I am right and the rest of the world is insanely wrong. :)<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">davew<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Sun, Jun 14, 2020, at 10:11 AM, <a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" target="_blank">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" id="gmail-m_7515527843570343570gmail-m_-4316817134111246633qt"><div><p>Hi, Dave,<u></u><u></u></p><p> <u></u><u></u></p><p>I am always interested when any of our members – we who are so hard on the “tin hat people” --, departsfrom scientific orthodoxy. What determines when a scientist substitutes his own judgement for that of colleagues in other disciplines? That’s not a rhetorical question. And, having done that, why would on ever go to a doctor again? What about Linus Pauling and vitamin C? <u></u><u></u></p><p> <u></u><u></u></p><p>Has anybody heard from Bruce? Did he make it across? <u></u><u></u></p><p> <u></u><u></u></p><p>Nick<u></u><u></u></p><p> <u></u><u></u></p><div><p>Nicholas Thompson<u></u><u></u></p><p>Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology<u></u><u></u></p><p>Clark University<u></u><u></u></p><p><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com" target="_blank">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</a><u></u><u></u></p><p><a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/" target="_blank">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</a><u></u><u></u></p><p><u></u> <u></u></p><p> <u></u><u></u></p></div><p> <u></u><u></u></p><div><div style="border-right:none currentcolor;border-bottom:none currentcolor;border-left:none currentcolor;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Prof David West<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, June 14, 2020 7:15 AM<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam@redfish.com</a><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><b>Subject:</b> [FRIAM] alternative response<u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div><p> <u></u><u></u></p><div><p><span><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">My time in Amsterdam put me dead center in the Vegan / Vegetarian / Herbal / Alternative Medicine community, with whom I still correspond. I received this book and a strong recommendation from them. Most of the people in that community are following the ideas in the book and claim high effectiveness.</span></span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p><span><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span></span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p><span><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">I have a deep respect for acupuncture and Ayurveda and similar traditions, but am highly skeptical of the "new age" stuff. Nevertheless, in case someone is curious/interested.</span></span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p><span><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span></span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p><span><b><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Herbal Antivirals: Natural Remedies for Emerging & Resistant Viral Infections</span></b></span><span><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span></span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p><span><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span></span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p><span><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Take control of your health and learn how to use herbs safely and effectively to prevent and fight off a wide range of viral infections, including coronaviruses, SARS, influenza, encephalitis, dengue fever, and more. Expert herbalist Stephen Harrod Buhner offers this exhaustive guide to understanding the antiviral properties of dozens of herbs, backed up by the most recent research studies and findings. In addition to in-depth profiles of the herbs, Buhner provides complete, step-by-step instructions for obtaining high-quality herbs and preparing and using customized herbal formulations for strengthening the immune system and addressing each virus. Discover how these natural remedies can help keep you and your family healthy and strong.</span></span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p><span><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span></span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p><span><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">davew</span></span><u></u><u></u></p></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam" target="_blank">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">un/subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" target="_blank">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div></blockquote><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div></div></div>- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<br>
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