<!DOCTYPE html><html><head><title></title><style type="text/css">#qt p.qt-MsoNormal{margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif;}
#qt a:link{color:blue;text-decoration-line:underline;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor;text-decoration-thickness:auto;}
#qt p.qt-qt-msonormal1{margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif;}
p.MsoNormal,p.MsoNoSpacing{margin:0}</style></head><body><div style="font-family:Arial;">Software Engineering considers itself to be an applied science. Physics::Engineering — Computer Science::Software Engineering.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Rightness / wrongness can have two dimensions. The most obvious is the degree to which the engineering conforms to the 'laws' / principles of the underlying science. An alternative dimension would be the degree to which the engineering actually identifies and solves the actual problem.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Software engineering 'fails' because it is incapable of solving the problems presented by complex systems. Among them, ambiguity, context sensitivity, unknowable, even in principle, variables, and "wicked problems."<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">Analogy: buildings can be engineered, cities cannot.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">davew<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div>On Sun, Jun 14, 2020, at 12:20 PM, <a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a> wrote:<br></div><blockquote type="cite" id="qt" style=""><div class="qt-WordSection1"><p class="qt-MsoNormal">Ah. So. Very interesting. <br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal">So, software engineering is not a science. It’s a culture? There is no right or wrong about it?<br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal">Or, software engineer IS a science. We proceed best if we assume that there will be, in the long run, a right and a wrong about it. <br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal">What is the validator of rightness and wrongness in software engineering?<br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal">N<br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">Nicholas Thompson<br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal">Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology<br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal">Clark University<br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"><span style="color:rgb(5, 99, 193);">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"><span style="color:rgb(5, 99, 193);">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p><div><div style="border-right-color:currentcolor;border-right-style:none;border-right-width:medium;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-style:none;border-bottom-width:medium;border-left-color:currentcolor;border-left-style:none;border-left-width:medium;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1;border-top-color:rgb(225, 225, 225);border-top-style:solid;border-top-width:1pt;padding-top:3pt;padding-right:0in;padding-bottom:0in;padding-left:0in;"><p class="qt-MsoNormal"></p><div><b>From:</b> Friam <friam-bounces@redfish.com> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Prof David West<br></div><div><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, June 14, 2020 12:16 PM<br></div><div><b>To:</b> friam@redfish.com<br></div><div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] alternative response<br></div><p></p></div></div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">Frank,</span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">I think the point of the herbalist is not that a herb will attack a virus directly, but that herbals will enhance a person's immune system in general, including ability to defend against viruses. That is a little less farfetched than the idea, I think, your comment was directed towards.</span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">Nick,</span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">Not as a 'scientist' but merely as a professional and in the discipline of software development. I have substituted my own judgement against the mainstream of Software Engineering since 1968 when SE was invented. My determination to do so is simply the fact that I am right and the rest of the world is insanely wrong. :)</span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">davew</span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">On Sun, Jun 14, 2020, at 10:11 AM, <a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a> wrote:<br></p></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;" id="qt-qt"><div><p class="qt-qt-msonormal1">Hi, Dave,<br></p><p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"> <br></p><p class="qt-qt-msonormal1">I am always interested when any of our members – we who are so hard on the “tin hat people” --, departsfrom scientific orthodoxy. What determines when a scientist substitutes his own judgement for that of colleagues in other disciplines? That’s not a rhetorical question. And, having done that, why would on ever go to a doctor again? What about Linus Pauling and vitamin C? <br></p><p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"> <br></p><p class="qt-qt-msonormal1">Has anybody heard from Bruce? Did he make it across? <br></p><p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"> <br></p><p class="qt-qt-msonormal1">Nick<br></p><p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"> <br></p><div><p class="qt-qt-msonormal1">Nicholas Thompson<br></p><p class="qt-qt-msonormal1">Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology<br></p><p class="qt-qt-msonormal1">Clark University<br></p><p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</a><br></p><p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</a><br></p><p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"> <br></p><p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"> <br></p></div><p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"> <br></p><div><div style="border-right-style:none;border-right-width:medium;border-bottom-style:none;border-bottom-width:medium;border-left-style:none;border-left-width:medium;border-top-color:rgb(225, 225, 225);border-top-style:solid;border-top-width:1pt;padding-top:3pt;padding-right:0in;padding-bottom:0in;padding-left:0in;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-left-color:currentcolor;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1;"><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Prof David West<br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, June 14, 2020 7:15 AM<br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><b>Subject:</b> [FRIAM] alternative response<br></p></div></div></div><p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"> <br></p><div><p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-font"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">My time in Amsterdam put me dead center in the Vegan / Vegetarian / Herbal / Alternative Medicine community, with whom I still correspond. I received this book and a strong recommendation from them. Most of the people in that community are following the ideas in the book and claim high effectiveness.</span></span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-font"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span></span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-font"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">I have a deep respect for acupuncture and Ayurveda and similar traditions, but am highly skeptical of the "new age" stuff. Nevertheless, in case someone is curious/interested.</span></span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-font"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span></span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-font"><b><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">Herbal Antivirals: Natural Remedies for Emerging & Resistant Viral Infections</span></span></b></span><span class="qt-font"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span></span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-font"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span></span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-font"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">Take control of your health and learn how to use herbs safely and effectively to prevent and fight off a wide range of viral infections, including coronaviruses, SARS, influenza, encephalitis, dengue fever, and more. Expert herbalist Stephen Harrod Buhner offers this exhaustive guide to understanding the antiviral properties of dozens of herbs, backed up by the most recent research studies and findings. In addition to in-depth profiles of the herbs, Buhner provides complete, step-by-step instructions for obtaining high-quality herbs and preparing and using customized herbal formulations for strengthening the immune system and addressing each virus. Discover how these natural remedies can help keep you and your family healthy and strong.</span></span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-font"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span></span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-font"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">davew</span></span></span><br></p></div></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">un/subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> <br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p></div></blockquote><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span></span><br></p></div></div><div>- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<br></div><div>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br></div><div>Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br></div><div>un/subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br></div><div>archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br></div><div>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> <br></div><div><br></div></blockquote><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div></body></html>