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<p>What about the roles/value of Design vs Systems thinking in
working toward collective solutions to large, complex and often
abstract problems. They are considered to be somewhat
independent of one another and not mutually exclusive. They are
roughly associated, respectively with Synthesis vs Analysis but
not exclusively and both have some chops in *avoiding common
pitfalls" like failing to consider unintended consequences <br>
</p>
<p>This was an interesting popular article on the topic: <br>
</p>
<blockquote>
<p><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://medium.com/from-design-thinking-to-system-change/marrying-design-and-systems-thinking-e856c1a3ba1f">https://medium.com/from-design-thinking-to-system-change/marrying-design-and-systems-thinking-e856c1a3ba1f</a></p>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 6/14/20 12:46 PM, Prof David West
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:3ec9f137-1723-4e9d-adc8-8d49e810983f@www.fastmail.com">
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<div style="font-family:Arial;">a draft from something I am
working on at the moment:<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.25in;"><span style=""><span
class="font" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",
serif;"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt;">The
future demands an approach to software
development that addresses both complexity and scale.
Complex systems are
highly dynamic; a consequence of the need to rapidly
respond to changing
circumstances. Complex systems exhibit emergent behavior;
characteristics and
relationships that are not predictable. Complex systems
give rise to “wicked
problems” where any solution redefines the problem.
Complex systems, like
biological and social systems, are “grown” not
“engineered.”</span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.25in;"><span style=""><span
class="font" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",
serif;"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt;"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.25in;"><span style=""><span
class="font" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",
serif;"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt;">Ultra-large-scale
systems add a second dimension to complexity and present
additional challenges,
especially with regard control, heterogeneity, and
integration of human and
artificial elements of the system. The Software
Engineering Institute at
Carnegie-Mellon University authored a definitive study — <i>Ultra-Large-Scale
Systems: The Software Challenge of the Future</i>. The
report concludes, <i>“we
require a broad new conception of both the nature of
such systems and new ideas
for how to develop them”</i> and <i>“The task of
developing dependable software
at the scope and scale of ULS systems will exceed the
capabilities of software
engineering methods that have evolved in the first 50
years of computing.”</i></span></span></span><br>
</p>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Within SEI and CMU, there was a
debate, for a while, with regards the last sentence. One side,
characterized as the "systems of systems" people argued that
software engineering would evolve methods to deal with ULS that
nevertheless remained true to SE. Eventually, they, mostly,
gave up that position.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Herbert Simon wrote, <i>Sciences
of the Artificial </i>which captures the SE philosophy / mind
set almost perfectly, and he denies that there is such a thing
as a complex system.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">davew<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
<div>On Sun, Jun 14, 2020, at 12:20 PM, <a
href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" id="qt" style="">
<div class="qt-WordSection1">
<p class="qt-MsoNormal">Ah. So. Very interesting. <br>
</p>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal">So, software engineering is not a
science. It’s a culture? There is no right or wrong about
it?<br>
</p>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal">Or, software engineer IS a science.
We proceed best if we assume that there will be, in the long
run, a right and a wrong about it. <br>
</p>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal">What is the validator of rightness and
wrongness in software engineering?<br>
</p>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal">N<br>
</p>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal">Nicholas Thompson<br>
</p>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal">Emeritus Professor of Ethology and
Psychology<br>
</p>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal">Clark University<br>
</p>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><a
href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:rgb(5, 99,
193);">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><br>
</p>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><a
href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:rgb(5, 99,
193);">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><br>
</p>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><br>
</p>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
</div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
<div>
<div
style="border-right-color:currentcolor;border-right-style:none;border-right-width:medium;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-style:none;border-bottom-width:medium;border-left-color:currentcolor;border-left-style:none;border-left-width:medium;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1;border-top-color:rgb(225,
225,
225);border-top-style:solid;border-top-width:1pt;padding-top:3pt;padding-right:0in;padding-bottom:0in;padding-left:0in;">
<div><b>From:</b> Friam <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Prof David West<br>
</div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, June 14, 2020 12:16 PM<br>
</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
</div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] alternative response<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">Frank,</span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">I
think the point of the herbalist is not that a herb
will attack a virus directly, but that herbals will
enhance a person's immune system in general, including
ability to defend against viruses. That is a little
less farfetched than the idea, I think, your comment
was directed towards.</span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">Nick,</span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">Not
as a 'scientist' but merely as a professional and in
the discipline of software development. I have
substituted my own judgement against the mainstream of
Software Engineering since 1968 when SE was invented.
My determination to do so is simply the fact that I am
right and the rest of the world is insanely wrong. :)</span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;">davew</span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal">On Sun, Jun 14, 2020, at 10:11 AM, <a
href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>
wrote:<br>
</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;"
id="qt-qt">
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1">Hi, Dave,<br>
</p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"> <br>
</p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1">I am always interested when
any of our members – we who are so hard on the “tin hat
people” --, departsfrom scientific orthodoxy. What
determines when a scientist substitutes his own
judgement for that of colleagues in other disciplines?
That’s not a rhetorical question. And, having done
that, why would on ever go to a doctor again? What
about Linus Pauling and vitamin C? <br>
</p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"> <br>
</p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1">Has anybody heard from Bruce?
Did he make it across? <br>
</p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"> <br>
</p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1">Nick<br>
</p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"> <br>
</p>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1">Nicholas Thompson<br>
</p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1">Emeritus Professor of
Ethology and Psychology<br>
</p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1">Clark University<br>
</p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><a
href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</a><br>
</p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><a
href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</a><br>
</p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"> <br>
</p>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"> <br>
</p>
</div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"> <br>
</p>
<div>
<div
style="border-right-style:none;border-right-width:medium;border-bottom-style:none;border-bottom-width:medium;border-left-style:none;border-left-width:medium;border-top-color:rgb(225,
225,
225);border-top-style:solid;border-top-width:1pt;padding-top:3pt;padding-right:0in;padding-bottom:0in;padding-left:0in;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-left-color:currentcolor;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1;">
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Prof David West<br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, June
14, 2020 7:15 AM<br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><b>To:</b> <a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><b>Subject:</b> [FRIAM]
alternative response<br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"> <br>
</p>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-font"><span
style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">My time in Amsterdam put me dead
center in the Vegan / Vegetarian / Herbal /
Alternative Medicine community, with whom I
still correspond. I received this book and a
strong recommendation from them. Most of the
people in that community are following the ideas
in the book and claim high effectiveness.</span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-font"><span
style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-font"><span
style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">I have a deep respect for
acupuncture and Ayurveda and similar traditions,
but am highly skeptical of the "new age" stuff.
Nevertheless, in case someone is
curious/interested.</span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-font"><span
style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-font"><b><span
style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">Herbal Antivirals: Natural
Remedies for Emerging & Resistant Viral
Infections</span></span></b></span><span
class="qt-font"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-font"><span
style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-font"><span
style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">Take control of your health and
learn how to use herbs safely and effectively to
prevent and fight off a wide range of viral
infections, including coronaviruses, SARS,
influenza, encephalitis, dengue fever, and more.
Expert herbalist Stephen Harrod Buhner offers
this exhaustive guide to understanding the
antiviral properties of dozens of herbs, backed
up by the most recent research studies and
findings. In addition to in-depth profiles of
the herbs, Buhner provides complete,
step-by-step instructions for obtaining
high-quality herbs and preparing and using
customized herbal formulations for strengthening
the immune system and addressing each virus.
Discover how these natural remedies can help
keep you and your family healthy and strong.</span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-font"><span
style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal1"><span class="qt-font"><span
style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial",
sans-serif;">davew</span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal">- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. ..
... -..-. .... . .-. .<br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal">FRIAM Applied Complexity Group
listserv<br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal">Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a
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</p>
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</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font"
style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif;"> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
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<div>- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<br>
</div>
<div>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
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</blockquote>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br>
</div>
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
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