<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Steve,</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Hierarchy is an efficient way of doing business/getting things done. It breaks down and becomes oppressive if the guys at the top always look alike and stay too long ("the patriarchy"). Leaders waiting to emerge in organizations are often suppressed by static hierarchical structures--not to mention the dependence on "experts"-- and we lose the potential wisdom and action of potential change agents. "The Wisdom of Crowds" makes sense. Collective action is more necessary than ever.</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 5:01 PM Steve Smith <<a href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com" target="_blank">sasmyth@swcp.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>I haven't been able to retrieve the reference but I recently
read/heard something about the fact that post-feudal
economic/political organizations inherited the paradigm of
managing scale and complexity through hierarchy. Capitalistic
Republics/Democracies and Socialist/Communist societies with
"Central Planning" are both effectively structured this way, in
spite of attempting (each in it's own way) to empower or equalize
the "common (hu)man"... <br>
</p>
<p>I think what Guerin has been babbling <grin> about most
recently (at least since Stockholm) is his vision of what an
otherwise organized "collective
awareness/action/consciousness/intelligence/etc" might be as well
as what I think Glen might have been gesturing-at when he
criticized Nick's recent offering up of BHL vs NJL. <br>
</p>
<p>I'd be interested in more discussion of what I think Glen is
alluding to with a purists notion of "Collective Action". It
might be contradictory to "talk about" something which is
inherently not about talking/language, at least (or may entirely)
in the common sense of "language".</p>
<p>I could rattle on a few more paragraphs describing my own
half-baked ideas, but I'll save that until maybe there are more
well-baked ideas on the table.</p>
<p>- Steve<br>
</p>
<div>On 7/29/20 3:02 PM, Merle Lefkoff
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Eric, thank you for
your reply. Forgive me for suggesting a larger systemic
problem, connected for me to the problems in our democratic
system, our global economic system, and our international
governance system--and also ultimately related to the
existential threat of the collapse of the living systems that
nurture our species.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">The democracy and
Constitution our founders gave us at the end of the 18th
century has structural flaws we have tried to overcome. The
global economic system that the victors of WWII gave us at
Bretton Woods in 1944 has similar structural flaws that we
have also tried (not very hard) to overcome. The United
Nations that emerged a year later in 1945 to convene a new
international order shares similar structural problems. There
is a pattern here. At its core is domination and exclusivity.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">The present hesitant
shifts in the old narratives--and relationships-- that created
our major social, economic and political systems are the
result of gladiators and dragon-slayers finally targeting the
positive feedback loops that keep reinforcing historic
institutional design errors.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">I'll stop here, because
I'm even boring myself. </div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 9:49
PM Eric Charles <<a href="mailto:eric.phillip.charles@gmail.com" target="_blank">eric.phillip.charles@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Nick, the "ire" is perfectly fine. I didn't need to
couch my statement in that way, and doing so obviously
opened me to Merle's response. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Merle,</div>
I think the social criticism is generally valid, but as a
critique of college in particular it is feeds a general
confusion about what college should be about, which
ultimately speeds the fall of the system it seeks to
reform.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>One of the obvious legitimate functions of college is
indoctrination into a profession. If you don't want to be
indoctrinated into a profession that college indoctrinates
people into, then college probably isn't for you. If you
get out of college not-indoctrinated-into-a-profession,
something has gone wrong. For example, if you want to get
a degree in psychology, you need to learn to write in some
reasonable semblance of APA style. That includes its own
horribly arbitrary set of grammar rules, formatting and
the like. It is screwed up, in some sense, but it isn't
imperialist oppression aimed at minorities. Arbitrary
norms are found in all professions, and conforming to them
is part of being "professional". Also, if you got a degree
in psychology, without anyone forcing you to learn how to
approach problems, write reports, criticize articles,
etc., in the manner that professional psychologists tend
to do those things, something has gone wrong. If you want
to think about psychology-related stuff in the way you
already think about those things, then don't go to
college. If you want to learn to think about them in the
way the professional community does, then college might
make senes. (Note, I'm <i>not </i>saying you have to <i>agree
</i>with how the professional community does things, just
that you should be able to replicate, with some reasonable
accuracy, the standard professional approach.) Where you
start from doesn't really matter; though the curricula <i>should
</i>be more adaptive to the starting place of the various
students, by the end you should be professional
indoctrinated, that's the whole point.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In addition, college functions to indoctrinate people
into a certain part of society... or at least it used
to. Because, traditionally, most college graduates don't
get work in exactly the thing they studied, this "hidden
curriculum" has often been more important than the
obvious curriculum. College graduates should be able to
read, write, and math at a certain level, generally
think through problems at a certain level, be able to
present ideas to an audience in spoken or written form,
be able to adapt to arbitrary assignments with a certain
level of comfort, be a team leader, be a pro-active
follower, etc. Here again, colleges <i>should </i>be
more adaptive to the starting place of the various
students, but that doesn't mean their end point should
be abandoned. Here you see big differences between
colleges, based on what they are preparing you for. A
college like Swathmore or Bucknell is preparing you to
be able to do those things for different audiences than
Oberlin or Penn State. If you are at a school that is
well designed to prepare you for something you don't
want to be prepared for... that's not imperialist
oppression, that's your having made an unfortunate
choice of where to go. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Frankly, most colleges currently suck at those two
goals, and most other functions you might want them to
have. It is easy to find studies showing that lots of
people graduate college without high school level
reading, writing, and math abilities. It is also easy to
find students who graduate with almost no indoctrination
into the field of study they were purportedly pursuing. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Under those conditions, it is not surprising that
people view a college degree as largely symbolic marker,
required for entry into the job market or some such
nonsense. However, the solution shouldn't be to make
college degrees even less indicative of having attained
particular skills. The less a college degree indicates
having a certain variety of skills, the less value is
provided to employers to select based on the presence of
a degree, and the less value it gives a college graduate
to have a degree. Returning to the indoctrination thing,
we can see the (potential) flaw in the criticism of the
curriculum. It doesn't make a lot of sense to say, "I
really want a degree from Rutgers, because employers
value degrees from Rutgers, but I also think Rutgers
should change its curriculum to not be so strict in only
letting people graduate if they actually have the skills
employers value." The value of the degree, particularly
to a person trying to get out of a bad situation, is
entirely based on its reliably indicating some set of
skills, and the ability to write in a semi-formal manner
is one of those skills (to return to the more narrow
original context). </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If you formed a solid college curriculum around
mastering skills other than those traditionally trained
in college, that would be fine (and I think that is what
Nick is struggling to get at). And if those skills were
valued (economically, or merely for personal growth)
then a degree from that college would be a reliable
indicator of that specific valuable achievement. But
that is very different than allowing students to get
through college with whatever skills they arrived with,
just because you are afraid that enforcing <i>any </i>strict requirements
might make you an imperialist monster. The former
creates a marketplace for students to choose from, while
the latter just guarantees that college degrees continue
to become less and less valuable, particularly to the
people who most seek to benefit by getting them. <br clear="all">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr"><br clear="all">
</div>
<div>(Sorry, that ended up longer than
intended.... but it's late... I don't
think I can get it tighter right now...
and your question deserves a reply.) </div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at
11:21 PM Merle Lefkoff <<a href="mailto:merlelefkoff@gmail.com" target="_blank">merlelefkoff@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">And why, O Eric
of a deep understanding, are you not a fan?</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Jul 28, 2020
at 8:17 PM Merle Lefkoff <<a href="mailto:merlelefkoff@gmail.com" target="_blank">merlelefkoff@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Clearly the
implicit bias is that all of these reading
requirements were written by White men. In an
attempt to redress this problem I have noticed
lately that the NY Times book review seems to be
bending over backwards to review books written by
women of color.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Jul 28,
2020 at 7:03 PM Frank Wimberly <<a href="mailto:wimberly3@gmail.com" target="_blank">wimberly3@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">I'm trying to remember my
freshman English class. Every other Friday we
had to submit a five hundred word essay on the
class readings. On alternate Fridays we had to
write an in-class paragraph or two on those
readings. The readings included the
following:</div>
<div dir="auto"> </div>
Catcher in the Rye by Salinger
<div dir="auto">Victory by Conrad</div>
<div dir="auto">The Republic by Plato</div>
<div dir="auto">All the King's Men by Warren</div>
<div dir="auto">Brave New World by Huxley</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Numerous essays on personal
integrity by various authors.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">I don't see that any of those
had to do with unconscious racism or implicit
bias unless the personal integrity essays
did. I think I had to read The Invisible Man
by Ellison but that may have been in a later
year in a political science or US history
class at Berkeley.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">All this was 54 years ago.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Frank</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
<div dir="auto">---<br>
Frank C. Wimberly<br>
140 Calle Ojo Feliz, <br>
Santa Fe, NM 87505<br>
<br>
505 670-9918<br>
Santa Fe, NM</div>
</div>
</div>
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... .
.-. .<br>
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>
un/subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>
archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br>
FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br clear="all">
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.<br>
Center for Emergent Diplomacy<br>
<a href="http://emergentdiplomacy.org" target="_blank">emergentdiplomacy.org</a></div>
<div>Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA</div>
<div><br>
mobile: (303) 859-5609<br>
skype: merle.lelfkoff2<br>
</div>
<div>twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br clear="all">
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.<br>
Center for Emergent Diplomacy<br>
<a href="http://emergentdiplomacy.org" target="_blank">emergentdiplomacy.org</a></div>
<div>Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA</div>
<div><br>
mobile: (303) 859-5609<br>
skype: merle.lelfkoff2<br>
</div>
<div>twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<br>
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>
un/subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>
archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br>
FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<br>
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>
un/subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>
archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br>
FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br clear="all">
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.<br>
Center for Emergent Diplomacy<br>
<a href="http://emergentdiplomacy.org" target="_blank">emergentdiplomacy.org</a></div>
<div>Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA</div>
<div><br>
mobile: (303) 859-5609<br>
skype: merle.lelfkoff2<br>
</div>
<div>twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
<pre>- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriamun/subscribe" target="_blank">bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe</a> <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a>
archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" target="_blank">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a>
FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
</div>
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<br>
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>
un/subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>
archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br>
FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> <br>
</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div>Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.<br>Center for Emergent Diplomacy<br><a href="http://emergentdiplomacy.org" target="_blank">emergentdiplomacy.org</a></div><div>Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA</div><div></div><div><br>mobile: (303) 859-5609<br>skype: merle.lelfkoff2<br></div><div>twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff<br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>