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    <p>Glen -</p>
    <p>All video-game/bobblehead tangents aside, this was a fascinating
      complementary pair of links.</p>
    <p>I didn't fully verify your Bulwark link, but my first impulse was
      to think it was an <a moz-do-not-send="true"
        href="https://www.theonion.com/">Onion</a> or <a
        moz-do-not-send="true"
        href="https://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report">Borowitz</a>
      article.  Fascinating that absurd things like this can go right
      past us in the torrent of nonsense that this administration has
      brought to us.  Lost in the cacophany of dog-whistles, as it were?<br>
    </p>
    <p>Interesting juxtaposition of Trump, Seagal, Depardieu (<i
        title="Russian-language romanization" style="color: rgb(32, 33,
        34); font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px;
        font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
        font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2;
        text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
        white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
        -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255,
        255); text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color:
        initial;" lang="ru-Latn">Zherar Depardyo!) </i><span
        style="color: rgb(32, 33, 34); font-family: sans-serif;
        font-size: 14px; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
        font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing:
        normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
        text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2;
        word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
        background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-style:
        initial; text-decoration-color: initial;">and </span>Snowden...   
      among other things, both Seagal and Depardieu's movies have been
      put on <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2020/02/19/ukraine-bans-movies-starring-zelenskiy-seagal-depardieu-over-national-security-a69342">a
        banned list in Ukraine</a>, and I'd guess Trump is not a very
      welcome person there either.   I don't know what they feel about
      Snowden... he's more likely to be a hero than antihero there, in
      spite Russia being his bolt-hole location?<a
href="https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2020/02/19/ukraine-bans-movies-starring-zelenskiy-seagal-depardieu-over-national-security-a69342">
        <br>
      </a></p>
    <p>These links remind me of several of the other frayed threads
      here...  you referenced yet another previous thread discussing
      "means of production" and whether I acquiesced openly to your
      grumbling about that at the time, it did set me on a different
      tangent internally.  <br>
    </p>
    <p> It also juxtaposes with the various lines of discussion around
      self-organization and hierarchical systems.   Many of us think
      first of political power structures when we think hierarchy.   To
      the extent that these systems maintain their own coherence through
      a certain amount of top-down control (i.e. exercise of authority)
      we tend to associate hierarchies as "top-down" systems, but I
      think that is somewhat of an illusion, or an edge case among the
      many examples of hierarchy in self-organized systems.   <br>
    </p>
    <p><a moz-do-not-send="true"
        href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterarchy">Heterarchy</a>
      and <a moz-do-not-send="true"
        href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holarchy">holarchy</a> come
      to mind, as does the generic <a moz-do-not-send="true"
        href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partially_ordered_set">poset</a>.
         <br>
    </p>
    <p>Snowden's rhetoric, which I generally approve/agree-with,
      includes an "othering" of  gub'mint and corporations that doesn't
      seem to overtly take into account that both of these are
      self-organized, emergent structures, even if from an
      oft-individual point of view they seem antithetical to the good of
      the individual.</p>
    <p>mumble,</p>
    <p> - Steve<br>
    </p>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:78f2eb17-52c0-9dd4-957e-4825defa056a@gmail.com">
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Trump’s New Ad Is Amazing
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://thebulwark.com/trumps-new-ad-is-amazing/">https://thebulwark.com/trumps-new-ad-is-amazing/</a>

We can only dream that Trump will be indicted and tried for treason. It's interesting to speculate whether he'll seek asylum in Russia. Snowden seems to be OK, but not thriving:

<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.wired.com/story/the-age-of-mass-surveillance-will-not-last-forever/">https://www.wired.com/story/the-age-of-mass-surveillance-will-not-last-forever/</a>

Steven Seagal and Gérard Depardieu are probably doing better. I can't help but wonder how Trump would fare.
</pre>
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