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<p>Nick -</p>
<p>FYI, Mary just found 6 *brown* eggs in the (almost) closed off
section of our coop intended to *become* the nesting boxes for our
chickens... apparently they were able to "squeeze in" and lay
their eggs. These our very first eggs from these hens... 6 eggs
from 8 hens... possibly not all layed in the last 24 hours... but
maybe. So in this case, brown eggs are *ultra* local and for
sure, fresher than those even collected from the myriad
egg-factories in NM. We had 3 this morning for breakfast and
they were not just "fresh" but "rich" (they free range in our
courtyard where along with eating any tender shoot that might to
come up, they also get a lot of insects).</p>
<p>I still contend that what you are calling epiphenomena is
primarily a reflection of our ignorance... correlations and
causations which are secondary or tertiary or n-ary to what we are
measuring or are focused on. I think the "epi" in epiphenoma is
an artifact of the observer in a much stronger sense than a
phenomenon of the system. I brought up *epi*systems before,
mostly in the context of *engineered* systems. An electric
starter motor on an automobile (or perhaps a "pony engine" on a
Dozer or other giant yellow dirt-moving diesel-powered machine) is
there for the epi-purpose of getting the main engine turning over
to generate the necessary fuel-mixture-flow and compression to get
it started. In principle (with a manual transmission and now
clutch-lockout-switch) one can use their electric motor to move
their vehicle. My parents, in fact did this once when I was very
young with their VW pickup, moving over the crest of a hill so
that they could coast it back into town to the VW mechanic that
had just done service on it and caused some unexpected problem (my
father was in no way a mechanic). <br>
</p>
<p>Or maybe I'm just not open-minded enough or reading this thread
carefully enough. Can you (or anyone else?) refute or frame my
assertion about the *epi* prefix?</p>
<p>- Steve<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 8/17/20 9:23 AM,
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a> wrote:<br>
</div>
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal">Dave, <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">In all the years of dealing with you
wizards, I have never heard of that taxonomy before. Can you
direct me to a child-level introduction to it? <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="quotationChar">for those not
familiar with computing, there are seven different types of
"cohesion" and eight types of "coupling." Communicational
coupling is one of the eight</span><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nick<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nicholas
Thompson
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Emeritus Professor of Ethology and
Psychology<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Clark University<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#0563C1">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#0563C1">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Prof
David West<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, August 17, 2020 7:59 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] "Brown eggs are local eggs and
local eggs are FRESH!"<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">What
prompted me to tell the story was another account of a
convoluted and complicated reproductive cycle — the sheep
tick nematode. It seems like a single, multi-step, process
with each step highly cohesive and therefore appearing
somewhat autonomous, but the sequence being, at minimum,
communicationally coupled.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">BTW — for
those not familiar with computing, there are seven
different types of "cohesion" and eight types of
"coupling." Communicational coupling is one of the eight.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">davew<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Aug 17, 2020, at 6:17 AM, David
Eric Smith wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;overflow-wrap:break-word"
id="qt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dave, hi,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Your description is very close to the
original description by Conrad Waddington for the process
he terms “canalization”.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I haven’t read a ton of this stuff, but
I believe the first paper (also about birds, but this time
ostriches), was:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> author = "Waddington, C.~H.",<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> title = "Canalization of
development and the inheritance of<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> acquired characters",<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> journal = "Nature",<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> volume = "150",<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> pages = "563--565",<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> year = "1942"<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I expect, however, that Nick and EricC
read all this stuff in the crib, because they have read
and written a lot on evolution. But in any case, it gives
a concrete point of departure.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Eric<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Aug 17, 2020, at 12:52 PM,
Prof David West <<a
href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm"
moz-do-not-send="true">profwest@fastmail.fm</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Silly
question / story – about doves not chickens.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">I
gave the dove, like all my creatures, a command
to be fruitful and multiply. But I know my dove
well, and both the he and she of dovedom tend to
be a bit forgetful, even careless. It seemed to
me that they would need some kind of reminder to
sit on any eggs they produce but they seldom had
access to an alarm clock or appointment book.
Aha, said I, realizing a cute trick. A simple
tweak of the hormonal system, a system that
already has timing elements, will generate an
itchy breast that can be soothed by sitting on
the eggs. Of course, I will need to make sure an
egg is sat upon and not a smooth river rock, and
I want the itch to recede after an appropriate
time interval, so I will have the dove secrete a
substance that will bond with an element of the
chemical structure on an egg shell and that
reaction will require the necessary egg-sitting
interval to complete and sooth the dove-breast
until the hormonal system next secretes the
substance.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">One
process, not two that are somehow related
"epiphemomon-ologically." If this is my theory,
might I, if I were an ethologist, construct an
experiment to confirm/deny it?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">I
think this kind of approach to
constructing/confirming a theory would end up
making Occam happier than the approach discussed
on the list and at last Friday's vFRIAM.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">davew<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">On
Sun, Aug 16, 2020, at 12:10 PM, <a
href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a><span
class="qt-apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;font-variant-caps:normal;text-align:start;-moz-text-size-adjust:auto;-webkit-text-stroke-width:0px;text-decoration-line:none;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor;text-decoration-thickness:auto;word-spacing:0px"
id="qt-qt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Well, yes. But is that
necessary to expose the fundamental problem?
(Not a rhetorical question, I promise.) In my
presentation of the problem I have tried to
reduce it to “one level”, I.e, one color of
spheres co=related to one size. Put in red
(large) and yellow (small) spheres into the
top and get small yellow spheres out the
bottom. That there are four
levels/sizes/colors is just gravy, isn’t it?
Eye candy?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nick<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nicholas Thompson<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Emeritus Professor of
Ethology and Psychology<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Clark University<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span class="qt-"><span
style="color:#0563C1">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,sAJ5X6gwlypmzWnIFta7lfEOwtl84TnaopXd0_ZM2xzyUFZGIj4Elm0XsO-Dpg4SYprJciL4MPtw0Fy2CFEtyzWcr9j6iS_l77IhXVe7SIK83DmAGOt-Rzztpi2y&typo=1"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span class="qt-"><span
style="color:#0563C1">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in
0in;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-left-color:currentcolor;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1">
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal" style="margin:0in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
class="qt-apple-converted-space"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> </span></span><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Friam
<<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>><span
class="qt-apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On
Behalf Of<span
class="qt-apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Frank
Wimberly<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Sent:</span></b><span
class="qt-apple-converted-space"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> </span></span><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Sunday,
August 16, 2020 11:14 AM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">To:</span></b><span
class="qt-apple-converted-space"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> </span></span><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">The
Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee
Group <<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a>><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Subject:</span></b><span
class="qt-apple-converted-space"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> </span></span><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Re:
[FRIAM] "Brown eggs are local eggs and
local eggs are FRESH!"<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0in">So,
your homework is to give a conditional
independence relationship that describes the
reality. Maybe level is the third variable.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal" style="margin:0in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">---<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Frank
C. Wimberly<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">140
Calle Ojo Feliz,<span
class="qt-apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Santa
Fe, NM 87505<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">505
670-9918<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Santa
Fe, NM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Sun, Aug 16, 2020,
10:58 AM <<a
href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-top-color:currentcolor;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">No. Sorry. The
shape/size thing is a confusion that
got introduced early in the discussion
because Jon’s toy was different from
Sober’s Toy. Jon’s toy sorted for
shape; Sober’s for size. So, forget
shape. We are just talking about size
and color. (See attached
illustration). <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Now, imagine that
we put a shroud around the toy so we
cannot see into it. We put spheres,
mixed by size and color into the top
and shake it. (Remember that yellow
balls are the smallest, green balls
the next size up, etc.) Lo and
behold, all the small yellow balls end
up at the bottom. In the shrouded
version, nothing tells us whether the
machine is sorting for size and giving
us color or sorting for color and
giving us size, right? It’s the
golden goose problem. Is the goose
good at finding flecks of gold in the
barnyard or does the goose contain a
huge store of gold inside her.
Statistically, it doesn’t make any
difference, but if you are thinking of
killing the goose for the gold, you
better the hell know which kind of
goose you got. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nick<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nicholas Thompson<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Emeritus Professor
of Ethology and Psychology<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Clark University<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
class="qt-"><span
style="color:#0563C1">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,za-PiqhLDdWulm_KaaTclQSqvfoYqgAFzubAS8T1j2E_OaU8ORA7ZMzqkDP3A-6q_j0DJzsev8xq7nl0zzZE_CHrywHKoaIEkoRHivOGfsMj&typo=1"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
class="qt-"><span
style="color:#0563C1">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid
#E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in
0in;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-left-color:currentcolor;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1">
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"
style="margin:0in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
class="qt-apple-converted-space"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> </span></span><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Friam
<<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>><span
class="qt-apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On
Behalf Of<span
class="qt-apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Frank
Wimberly<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Sent:</span></b><span
class="qt-apple-converted-space"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> </span></span><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Sunday,
August 16, 2020 10:28 AM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">To:</span></b><span
class="qt-apple-converted-space"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> </span></span><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">The
Friday Morning Applied Complexity
Coffee Group <<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a>><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Subject:</span></b><span
class="qt-apple-converted-space"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> </span></span><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Re:
[FRIAM] "Brown eggs are local eggs
and local eggs are FRESH!"<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0in">What
it sounds like you're saying is color
is independent of shape given size?<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"
style="margin:0in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">---<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Frank
C. Wimberly<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">140
Calle Ojo Feliz,<span
class="qt-apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Santa
Fe, NM 87505<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">505
670-9918<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Santa
Fe, NM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Sun, Aug 16,
2020, 9:56 AM <<a
href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-top-color:currentcolor;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Frank<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Doesn’t
covariance beg the question of
causality? Put another way,
mathematics doesn’t care how
the small spheres come to be
yellow. Imagine an opaque
“epiphenomenator” so far as
the math is concerned it could
as well be true that smallness
is getting a free ride on
yellowness as that yellowness
is getting a free ride on
smallness. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks,
again, for helping me think
about this. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">N<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nicholas
Thompson<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Emeritus
Professor of Ethology and
Psychology<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Clark
University<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
class="qt-"><span
style="color:#0563C1">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,xnOrv74Lzh-6J1q59hDzFa1EIwdGF5fO_ELcc5Ar9d42v8O0tq1NwOXTkLtqxpvjQJLRb2_X9hxi8ynmgrsnl8FNdCkAX-Z7mxfXuf-4ElUONIXQPCat&typo=1"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
class="qt-"><span
style="color:#0563C1">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div
style="border:none;border-top:solid
#E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in
0in
0in;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-left-color:currentcolor;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1">
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"
style="margin:0in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
class="qt-apple-converted-space"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> </span></span><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Friam
<<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>><span
class="qt-apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span
class="qt-apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Frank
Wimberly<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Sent:</span></b><span
class="qt-apple-converted-space"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> </span></span><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Sunday,
August 16, 2020 7:51 AM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">To:</span></b><span
class="qt-apple-converted-space"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> </span></span><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">The
Friday Morning Applied
Complexity Coffee Group
<<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a>><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Subject:</span></b><span
class="qt-apple-converted-space"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> </span></span><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Re:
[FRIAM] "Brown eggs are
local eggs and local eggs
are FRESH!"<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0in">Good
choice. Our statistical
causal reasoning algorithms
were based on conditional
independence relations (is A
independent of B given C)
which are tested using
covariance statistics.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="qt-qt-msonormal"
style="margin:0in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">---<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Frank
C. Wimberly<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">140
Calle Ojo Feliz,<span
class="qt-apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Santa
Fe, NM 87505<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">505
670-9918<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Santa
Fe, N<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Sat,
Aug 15, 2020, 11:32 PM
David Eric Smith <<a
href="mailto:desmith@santafe.edu"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">desmith@santafe.edu</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in
0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-top-color:currentcolor;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">“Covariance”
is the term I see
universally used in
population genetics.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">If
one is disappointed at
merely using the
mathematical label for
the only relation that
ever appears in the
mathematics, then the
question arises what
else one wants from a
categorization, if the
categorization will
always be quarantined
outside the math that
carries the
consequences.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">We
had this discussion
for “interpretations
of quantum mechanics”,
and because Jon had
some reasonable things
to say about what one
does want from such an
interpretation, it
seems appropriate to
ask whether similar
contributions should
be sought here.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Eric<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">On
Aug 16, 2020,
at 2:23 PM,
<<a
href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>>
<<a
href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">Frank, <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">Well,
yes,
precisely.
And what would
you call that
relation?
It’s a very
common
relation, but
I don’t seem
to have a very
good name for
it. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">Nick <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">Nicholas
Thompson<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">Emeritus
Professor of
Ethology and
Psychology<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">Clark
University<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><a
href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
class="qt-"><span
style="color:#0563C1">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><a
href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,-XvvP7UQfTHLobknPzMP5r8sAfPOcnSiIH41MKyXIRnSha8tQabypuYpGtyJyuUrQ43mq5ul35krcYjQf9OGxU-TIT0otdUjvcSPqcuYnNFluqTJVHRoEp64TEFQ&typo=1"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><span class="qt-"><span
style="color:#0563C1">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div
style="border:none;border-top:solid
#E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt
0in 0in
0in;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-left-color:currentcolor;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1">
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal"
style="margin:0in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> Friam
<<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> <b>On
Behalf Of </b>Frank
Wimberly<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Sent:</span></b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> Saturday,
August 15,
2020 10:29 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">To:</span></b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> The
Friday Morning
Applied
Complexity
Coffee Group
<<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a>><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Subject:</span></b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> Re:
[FRIAM] "Brown
eggs are local
eggs and local
eggs are
FRESH!"<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">Nick,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">The
toy seems to
me to
illustrate
that one
variable can
be causally
related to
another
(selected) and
correlated to
a third which
is not
causally
connected to
the third.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">Or
something like
that. Am I
close?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0in">Frank<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal"
style="margin:0in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">---<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Frank
C. Wimberly<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">140
Calle Ojo
Feliz, <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Santa
Fe, NM 87505<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">505
670-9918<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Santa
Fe, NM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">On
Sat, Aug 15,
2020, 10:04 PM
<<a
href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid
#CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0in
0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-top-color:currentcolor;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">Hi,
Eric, <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">Nobody
should treat
my thoughts
concerning
epiphenomena,
intension,
extension,
etc. as
anything more
than vaguely
informed
explorations.
But you know
that. I have
struggled for
years to
understand
what my
colleagues
mean by these
terms and they
constantly
necker-cube
for me, so to
the extent
that I cannot
usually be
relied to
know what I am
talking about,
this is a
particularly
dangerous area
for me. In
particular, I
don’t think
Sober uses the
term,
“epiphenomenon”,
in his book,
so I would not
like to have
my
understanding
of the term
scraped off on
him. Calling
it the device
(see
attachment)
the Sober
Epiphenomenator
is probably
all on me. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">My
colleagues
have warned me
away from
poking at this
dungheap, but
I am
fascinated by
it. It just
seems to me
that
underlying all
this mess is a
pretty simple
idea, and I
would like to
clear it up,
if only for
myself. And
it further
seems to me
that the Sober
device, in its
childlike
simplity,
might be a
good place to
start. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">I
look forward
to considering
your economic
example to see
if it fits the
template, if
there is a
template. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">Nick <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">Nicholas
Thompson<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">Emeritus
Professor of
Ethology and
Psychology<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">Clark
University<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><a
href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
class="qt-"><span
style="color:#0563C1">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><a
href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,PonvMB4fyRuVaaC2-W3oNqsyfAjTDa4rmfxhitGmQxJ-XHhde5J0t-oy1qTjj4FzZ-MNWu6TyVI6VMj6oS1bhnLzpPm5qT7evjTEDNDqYStS6PyAt-Qjm7s-WQ,,&typo=1"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><span class="qt-"><span
style="color:#0563C1">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="border:none;border-top:solid
#E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt
0in 0in
0in;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-left-color:currentcolor;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1">
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal"
style="margin:0in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> Friam
<<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> <b>On
Behalf Of </b>David
Eric Smith<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Sent:</span></b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> Saturday,
August 15,
2020 9:30 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">To:</span></b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> The
Friday Morning
Applied
Complexity
Coffee Group
<<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a>><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Subject:</span></b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> Re:
[FRIAM] "Brown
eggs are local
eggs and local
eggs are
FRESH!"<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">It
is so
interesting
that, just as
in the earlier
discussions of
emergence and
probably
others, Nick
uses the word
“epiphenomenal” in ways it would never occur to me to use it, and as far
as I can tell
quite
exclusive of
the only way
it did ever
occur to me to
use it. I
guess DS
Wilson (or
Elliot Sober?)
uses it the
same way as
Nick is using
it, and I
never looked
up what was
the canonical
usage. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">But
anyway…<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">I
had always
used the term
in reference
to
neoclassical
economics (NE)
and its
treatment of
preferences
and
institutions.
I had always
said that NE
treated
institutions
as
epiphenomena
of
preferences.
By which I
mean the
following:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">1.
Even
economists
can’t simply
pretend
institutions
don’t exist.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">2.
However,
Arrow, Debreu,
and McKenzie
proved lovely
existence
theorems for
optimal
allocations
from the
competition of
individual
preferences,
and the
economists
really really
insist on
remaining in
the Garden of
Eden of those
existence
proofs.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">What
to do?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">3.
Acknowledge
that all these
names and
descriptions
of
institutions
do really
point at
things-in-the-world,
but declare
that
economically
those things
don’t actually
do any work or
mean
anything.
They are like
constellations
in the sky;
patterns that
can be seen
from certain
angles, as one
looks at the
_actual_ basis
for economic
behavior,
which is
individual
preferences. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">That
was what I had
thought was
captured in
the
characterization
“epiphenomenal”. But clearly I am using it as something of a
gesture-word,
and not
something for
which I am
building a
strict formal
logic. It is
more an
attempt to
explain the
patterns of
choices and
work by a
group of
people, and to
impute a state
of mind to
them to
explain those
choices.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">The
alternative to
institutions
as
“epiphenomena”
of preferences
would be
institutions
that not only
exist as
patterns to be
named, but as
real things in
the world that
do essential
work in
determining
what happens.
They govern
what actions
are available
to us, what
knowledge we
have to act
on, what power
or authority
or roles, and
on and on.
They define
signaling
systems
(monetary
units and
physical
monies,
ownership
claims, etc.)
and provide
the channels
on which the
signals are
transmitted
(contract law,
taxation,
etc.), and
thus are the
framework to
operationally
coordinate
pretty-much
everything we
think of as
constituting
economic
life. Without
them we would
not have raw,
competing
complete
preferences;
we would
largely cease
to exist as
economic
agents.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">The
usage isn’t
entirely
unlike Nick’s
semiotic/intensional-extensional contrasts, but it seems to differ in
the sense
that, when I
say the NE
guys treat
institutions
as
epiphenomena
of
preferences,
the work that
they want done
would be the
same whether
done by
preferences or
by
institutions.
So if they
were to think
of
institutions
as mattering,
those would be
contributing
part of the
mechanics of
choice then
not carried by
preferences,
whereas if
they are
epiphenomena
they are like
a kind of
transparent
window that
preferences
can be seen
through, while
the
preferences
carry all the
weight. Kind
of like the
bulk
magnetization
in a
ferromagnet is
not a
“different”
thing that
“supervenes”
on all the
microscopic
magnetic
moments and
forces them
into
coordination:
rather the
bulk
magnetization
is nothing
more than a
summary
statistic for
the
microscopic
magnetizations,
and really and
truly
_nothing_ more
or less than
the aggregate
of them, and
hence an
epiphenomenon
of
them-all-taken-together.
In contrast,
all of Nick’s
epiphenomena
are actual,
independent,
real
properties,
and the
discussion
then branches
off in a
different
direction of
who or what
does or
doesn’t
consider them
consequential. That to me seems more of a contrast of salient vs.
ancillary
actual
properties,
rather than
fundamental
versus epi or
purely
apparitional
phenomena.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">But
who knows. I
guess it
depends on
what problem
you want to
solve, what
count as
useful
categorizations.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">Eric<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="qt-qt-msonormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0in"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">On
Aug 16, 2020,
at 6:40 AM,
<<a
href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>>
<<a
href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">The
quote in the
subject line
was (is?) a
slogan that
Massachusetts
egg farmers
offered in
Massachusetts
shoppers
trying to get
them to buy
their eggs. It
came with a
ditty which,
if you call me
up, I will
happily sing
for you. The
back story is
that the
factory egg
producers in
neighboring NY
used chickens
that produced
white eggs.
Like as not,
if you were
eating a white
egg in MA you
were eating an
egg that had
been shipped
in from NY,
hence longer
in transit.
So, if the
campaign were
successful,
shoppers would
seek out brown
eggs because
of their
color.
Brownness in
eggs would be
their cue for
purchase. If
the campaign
worked, the
freshness
would become
epiphenonmenal
with respect
to their
selection
criteria.
From the point
of view of
Massachusetts
egg-producers,
the brownness
of the eggs
was
epiphenomenal.
All they cared
about is
whether the
eggs sold in
MA were from
MA This would
of course
break down if
NY farmers
started using
chickens that
laid brown
eggs or
Massachusetts
farmers
started
storing eggs
before
shipping
them. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">At
Friday’s
meeting, my
mentors urged
me to get off
the
“epiphenomenon”
kick. I
suppose I
could instead
use the
language of
semeiotics.
[Pause for
moaning in the
distance.] In
this case we
could say that
the producers
were trying to
make brownness
a sign of
value in
eggs. This
works for two
quite distinct
reasons: it
works for the
consumer
because the
brown is a
sign of local
and local is a
sign of fresh;
it works for
the producers
because brown
is a sign of
eggs that come
from their
farms. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">Instead
of semiotic
language, we
could use the
language of
intension and
extension.
[More
anguished
groans] The
marketing
campaign
works because
although the
intensions of
the choices of
the two agents
are different,
these
intensions are
both part of
the extension
of brown eggs
in
Massachusetts. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">Note
also that the
slogan is an
example of
powers and
perils of
abduction.
The sloganeer
first abduces
that brown
eggs are local
and from that
category
(local eggs)
deduces that
the eggs are
fresh. The
two steps in
the
abduction/deduction
process are <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div
style="margin-left:.5in">
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
class="font"><b><i><span
style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">These eggs are
brown; local
eggs are
brown; these
eggs are
local;</span></i></b></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div
style="margin-left:.5in">
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
class="font"><b><i><span
style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Local eggs are
fresh; these
[brown] eggs
are local;
these [brown]
eggs are
fresh. </span></i></b></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">The
point (to me)
is that there
is a very
simple thread
underlying all
of these ways
of talking
about natural
selection
phenomena.
Could all this
baroque
verbiage be
reduced to a
simple
formula? <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">Years
ago I wrote a<a
href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/239787151_A_system_for_describing_bird_song_units"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><span class="qt-"><span
style="color:#0563C1"> paper</span></span></a> that
reduced the
terminology of
bird song down
to three
operations and
5 levels of
organization.
In short, the
paper showed
that while
scientists had
been using
several dozen
terms, they
had, along,
only been
talking about
three
different
sorts of
thing. That
is the sort of
reduction I
would like to
do on all this
talk of
epiphenomena,
intension,
extension,
function,
purpose, cue,
side-effect,
spandrel,
exaptation,
blah,
blah-blah, and
blah-blah-blah. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">Thanks
for allowing
me to think in
your space and
on your time. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">Nick <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">Nicholas
Thompson<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">Emeritus
Professor of
Ethology and
Psychology<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">Clark
University<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><a
href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
class="qt-"><span
style="color:#0563C1">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a>
archives: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a>
FRIAM-COMIC <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a>
</pre>
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