<div dir="auto">What freedoms are Democrats trying to take away? The freedom to dump mine tailings in creeks? That's the one that I can think of.<br><br><div data-smartmail="gmail_signature">---<br>Frank C. Wimberly<br>140 Calle Ojo Feliz, <br>Santa Fe, NM 87505<br><br>505 670-9918<br>Santa Fe, NM</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Aug 22, 2020, 4:41 PM Eric Charles <<a href="mailto:eric.phillip.charles@gmail.com">eric.phillip.charles@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">David,<div><div dir="ltr" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div>That might have been true at some point, it is not any more. At this point they have different oligarchs they would prefer to control us, and those oligarchs have different aspects of our lives that they want to control. Neither major party has any interest in net-increasing personal liberty. The Bush II years saw HUGE decreases in freedom, and a huge uptick in Orwellian messaging (do you remember the "free speech zones"!?! Where Bush would protect your right to speech, but only if you stood in a fenced off cage while you were talking?). Trump certainly hasn't helped. Did Bush I? What regime of Republican control are you trying to reference? McConnell stopped Obama from doing lots of things, but all evidence is (based on his behavior and his overt speech) that his goal was to stonewall Obama, not to fight for our freedom. Plus, a huge chunk of the Republican Party (as it is today) would happily restrict our freedoms in line with the dogma of their particular brand of Christianity. </div><div><br></div><div>I mean, you can't be pushing for net freedom if you think a baker should be free to refuse bake a cake for a gay couple, but also think that being a gay couple should be criminal. </div><div><br></div><div>Now, maybe you are more annoyed about the freedoms that the Democrats are trying to take away than the freedoms the Republicans are trying to take away. I know many people who feel that way, and I know many who feel the opposite way.... but that doesn't make either one actually pro-freedom. </div><div><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Aug 22, 2020 at 2:21 PM Prof David West <<a href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">profwest@fastmail.fm</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><u></u><div><div style="font-family:Arial">Eric C. wrote:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><i>"A liberal is someone who is striving to increase liberty (for whatever reason). An authoritarian is striving to give control to a small central group or individual (for whatever reason)."</i><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">Around here, your observation would be 180 degrees opposite.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">A liberal (read Democrat) is someone who is striving to increase control by a small central group (by reasons of the fact that they are smarter and more enlightened than everyone else and only centralized government works) A conservative [substituted because I think your use of authoritarian violated the orthogonality you correctly noted.] (read Reupublican) is someone who is striving to increase individual liberty and freedom from intervention (by reason of seeing themselves as adults capable of making their own decisions.)<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial">davew<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div><div>On Sat, Aug 22, 2020, at 9:03 AM, Eric Charles wrote:<br></div><blockquote type="cite" id="m_4779642637509039498gmail-m_8150177627139415899qt"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>Liberal; was, "laissez-faire, free market"; is now, "humanist, socialist".<br></div><div> <br></div><div> Conservative: was "royalist, authoritarian; is now, "fascist, oligarchic." <br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>It is worse than that. At this point they don't mean anything so clear as what your quote implies. <br></div><div><br></div><div>Circa the French and American revolutions, the royalists were correctly labeled as conservatives, because authoritarian-government was what they had already, and the liberals were progressive, because they thought a world with more freedom would be a better world. So a bunch of the terms became conflated by historic accident. <br></div><div><br></div><div dir="ltr"><div>It <i><u>should</u> </i>be that there is a spectrum from libral to authoritarian, and an orthagonal scale from progressive to conservative. <br></div><div><br></div></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div>A liberal is someone who is striving to increase liberty (for whatever reason). An authoritarian is striving to give control to a small central group or individual (for whatever reason).<br></div><div><br></div><div>A progressive is striving towards some future state (gambling with the current state in the belief there are better states coming). A conservative is striving to maintain the current state (leering of risking what we have, because what comes next might be worse).<br></div><div><br></div><div>It should, therefore, be possible to be a libreal conservative, a liberal progressive, an authoritarian conservative, or an authoritarian progressive, depending on what the current state is, and whether you want to keep it or move on from it. <br></div><div><br></div><div>If we had people on some sort of normal distribution of people in those perspectives, with all of them coming to the town square, they could act as checks and balances on each other. Society-as-a-whole could be most conservative about the things that most needed conserving, while being the most progressive about the things that most needed progressing. Similarly, we could be delicate and precise in our restrictions of freedoms. THAT is the means by which democracy adds value as a means of governing (see Dewey, Oliver Wendell Holmes, and other pragmatist political philosophers). That democracy is sometimes implemented as "50% + 1 can do whatever they want" is a different matter entirely, which is why (as brought up in FRIAM this week), "the tyranny of the majority" was a big topic of discussion at various points in the past. <br></div><div><br></div><div>The conflation of the crucial political terms has made it extremely difficult to have certain types of political conversations in the U.S. For example, the cake-baking controversy: <br></div><div><ul><li>Some people think that forcing someone to bake a cake for an event they don't want to support is a "liberal" stance. That's crazy. The liberal stance would be to let the bakers do what they want. Telling them they have to bake the cake <i>because </i>a world in which they bake the cake is a better world, is a progressive-authoritarian stance. (It might be the right thing to do, it might be the wrong thing to do; our inability to describe the stances sensibly interferes with our ability to reach consensus on the issue.) Our "liberals" aren't trying to make us freer, they are trying to dictate from a seat of power; their efforts are authoritarian. <br></li><li>Other people think it would be a better world if the baker could refuse to make cakes much more broadly. For example, that it would be better if the bakers could refuse to bake cakes for interracial couples, or for a couple being married by a heathen religion. That isn't conservative at all! It isn't a respect for the hard-fought gains of the past and a reticence to risk losing those gains. <br></li></ul></div><div>Uhg! <br></div><div><br></div><div>(Yes, yes, many of those so-called conservatives imagine that the "better state" they seek has already existed in some mythic past, but that is a different issue all together; our liberal-progressive founders were inspired by stories of ancient Greece and Rome, but they weren't trying to conserve ancient Greece.)<br></div><div><br></div><div>Some other examples: <br></div><div><ul><li>We have had Social Security in the U.S. for almost 100 years. At this point, it is a thing achieved in the distant past. Wanting to change social security <i><u>is</u></i> progressive, and efforts to ensure social security can continue as it is indefinitely <i><u>are</u> </i>conservative. <br></li><li>At this point we have had a schizophrenic web of social-safety-net and wealth-redistribution programs for decades (from social security and food stamps to Pell grants, child tax credits, and first-time homebuyer programs). Each program has its own requirements, and its own hoops to jump through, and it could easily become a full time job just trying to get all the benefits one is entitled to. In the face of that, one could easily be a liberal-progressive arguing for Universal Basic Income, <i><u>if</u></i> you were using that as a means to dismantle the existing programs and provide people more freedom regarding how they are using the cash you are giving them. Milton Freedman argued in favor of UBI for that reason, but it is hard for most people to imagine that, because "wasn't he a conservative?" In contrast, one could also argue for UBI from an authoritarian position, if you can only think of the effort as coupled with a big tax increase, because your main motivation is to use government power to force more of rich people's money to be given to poor people. The latter is, in comparison to the Freedman version, much closer to the midline of the progressive-conservative spectrum. <br></li></ul></div><div>Uhg all around!<br></div><div><br></div><div>When Libertarians complain (not as often now as in decades past) the two major parties are "basically the same" (not as true now as in past decades), they mean to point out that both parties are heavily, Heavily, authoritarian. Both parties flood power to the Presidency that shouldn't be there. Both parties want to legislate and regulate how people should behave in a heavy handed manner, in a ridiculously wide range of situations. Both parties are an inconsistent and contradictory mix of progressivism and conservatism, depending on the issue. Etc. See, for example, Pelosi tearing up the state of the union speech while working to nigh-simultaneously to ensuring the renewal of the Patriot Act and FISA, and worse, ensuring that it happened without any of the bi-partisan proposed amendments to enhance privacy protections. That is straight authoritarian-conservative where it counts, with a thin veneer of performative grandstanding. I get it Nancy, "Orange Man Bad!", but, like, would it be that hard to to support even a shred of actually liberal efforts while you are shouting that from the rafters?!? <br></div><div><br></div><div>Sure, some of the things democrats want to dictate about my behavior are different than some of the things conservatives want to dictate... but those are (under more normal circumstances) small details, if you would consider the possibility that we could maybe go a few years without stripping freedoms and without funneling more unchecked power to the Presidency. If I stand a decent distance on the liberal side of the liberal-to-authoritarian spectrum, and both "major parties" stand towards the extreme of the authoritarian side, sharing the variation from authoritarian-progressive to authoritarian-conservative with a heavy amount of overlap, they look pretty similar from where I stand a lot of the time. <br></div><div><br></div><div>Of course, there is a difference, and I have a preference, and there is a lot more pressure to vote that preference this cycle than in more normal cycles... but that is a different issue. <br></div><div dir="ltr"><a href="mailto:echarles@american.edu" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"></a><br></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><br></div></div><div><br></div><div><div dir="ltr">On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 11:22 PM <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>So, we add to Dave's list, as follows.<br></div><div> <br></div><div> Liberal; was, "laissez-faire, free market"; is now, "humanist, socialist". <br></div><div> <br></div><div> Conservative: was "royalist, authoritarian; is now, "fascist, oligarchic."<br></div><div> <br></div><div> <br></div><div> Nicholas Thompson<br></div><div> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology<br></div><div> Clark University<br></div><div> <a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</a><br></div><div> <a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</a><br></div><div> <br></div><div> <br></div><div> <br></div><div> -----Original Message-----<br></div><div> From: Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> On Behalf Of Russell Standish<br></div><div> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 8:27 PM<br></div><div> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">friam@redfish.com</a>><br></div><div> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] words for Nick<br></div><div> <br></div><div> On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 11:24:20AM -0400, Eric Charles wrote:<br></div><div> > "Awesome" is one of my favorites. Now used to indicate general <br></div><div> > goodness. Not generally used in situations where one say "i was in awe".<br></div><div> > <br></div><div> > "Liberal" and "conservative" are two of my least favorite. Liberal <br></div><div> > was about promoting freedom. Conservative was about retaining past <br></div><div> > ways. Note that those are clearly orthogonal issues in their original <br></div><div> > usage, and now we act like they are opposites, which is terrible.<br></div><div> <br></div><div> And just as bizarrely, in Australia they are synonyms. The Liberal party is<br></div><div> the conservative party.<br></div><div> <br></div><div> <br></div><div> -- <br></div><div> <br></div><div> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------<br></div><div> Dr Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile)<br></div><div> Principal, High Performance Coders <a href="mailto:hpcoder@hpcoders.com.au" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">hpcoder@hpcoders.com.au</a><br></div><div> <a href="http://www.hpcoders.com.au" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.hpcoders.com.au</a><br></div><div> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------<br></div><div> <br></div><div> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<br></div><div> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br></div><div> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a> un/subscribe<br></div><div> <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br></div><div> archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br></div><div> FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> <br></div><div> <br></div><div> <br></div><div> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<br></div><div> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br></div><div> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br></div><div> un/subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br></div><div> archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br></div><div> FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> <br></div></blockquote></div></div><div>- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<br></div><div>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br></div><div>Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br></div><div>un/subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br></div><div>archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br></div><div>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> <br></div><div><br></div></blockquote><div style="font-family:Arial"><br></div></div>- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<br>
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