<div dir="auto">Never did sound like nonsense to me. I do think the scaling problems are large for most variables.<br><br><div data-smartmail="gmail_signature">---<br>Frank C. Wimberly<br>140 Calle Ojo Feliz, <br>Santa Fe, NM 87505<br><br>505 670-9918<br>Santa Fe, NM</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 5:12 PM Steve Smith <<a href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com">sasmyth@swcp.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>Frank -</p>
<p>Yes to both... attempting a formal mapping, but speaking loosely
by metaphor, awaiting that formulation... <br>
</p>
<p>Left/Right is discussed/expressed as a dimension. But I think
we all can agree that the political domain is in fact, higher
dimensional than that, and that our rhetoric projects dozens of
issues onto that single dimension. <br>
</p>
<p>I accept that it may be hard to put a metric on these dimensions,
or to agree on the metric (or dimensions). I would suspect that
political scientists *do* have metrics and dimensions, but the
ones I use anecdotally are simply my own wild-ass guesses. I
believe the anecdotally identified dimensions are at least
*orderable* if not *metrizeable*...</p>
<p>Does this still sound like nonsense?<br>
</p>
<p>- Steve<br>
</p>
<div>On 10/10/20 12:43 PM, Frank Wimberly
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="auto">Wait, what? Eigenvectors are properties of a
linear transformation from a space to itself. What's the space
and what's the linear transformation? Principal components
analysis is a method of spanning a space of variables with one
of lower dimension.
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Or are you speaking metaphorically?<br>
<br>
<div data-smartmail="gmail_signature" dir="auto">---<br>
Frank C. Wimberly<br>
140 Calle Ojo Feliz, <br>
Santa Fe, NM 87505<br>
<br>
505 670-9918<br>
Santa Fe, NM</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 12:27 PM
Steve Smith <<a href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">sasmyth@swcp.com</a>> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>Marcus -</p>
<p>(in mild agreement/acknowledgement of your point as I
understand it)<br>
</p>
<p>I suppose my own biases about human nature are that we
are driven along an internal greed/fear axis which is then
"weaponized" by the politicos. The Right seems
particularly adept at both, while impugning the Left as if
they are the ones playing those trump (Trump?) cards...
<br>
</p>
<p>Other axes such as equality/equanimity, group
loyalty/deference to authority, etc. seem *somewhat*
orthogonal.. <br>
</p>
<p>I suspect the terms "Progressive" and "Conservative"
don't really capture what is actually exhibited/explored
by the Left/Right tug-of war. I know that as I have
aged/matured/evolved I've become *much* more socially
progressive whilst feeling much more conservative about
progress itself... not trusting the headlong rush we are
on, while acknowledging that it is (somewhat) inevitable.</p>
<p>Following the arc of SteveG's ideas about collective
intelligence, least/stationary action, bidirectional
path-tracing as a paradigm that eclipses or replaces or
maybe subsumes (neo) Darwinism and Paternalism, I also
feel that we are overdue for some fundamental refactoring
of our collective models/paradigms. I'm no more
interested in the style of Pol Pot's Communism than I am
in Hitler's Fascism or Stalin's
Fascism-disguised-as-Socialism than I am in Trump's
variants on the same. They seem like they are all
aberrant excursions into a highly compressed (projection)
subspace that is at best a *shadow* of what is really
needed/possible.</p>
<p>- Steve<br>
</p>
<div>On 10/10/20 11:37 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">My model is that people lean left
and right as a developmental aspect of personality,
and the parties mimic but also manipulate those
patterns. People really must be gamed and
manipulated by politicians because even the
best-intentioned people are often ignorant of the
complexity of the population and the practicalities of
governance. Worse, many people are blamers who have
nothing to add beyond What’s In It For Me. </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Smith<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, October 10, 2020 9:55 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] labels</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p>Nick- </p>
<p>Not trying to ding you personally for this, but this
kind of blind deference to
authority/party/tribe/loyalty is one of the mechanisms
I'm trying to tease a part with Marcus' reference to
the Left/Right *dominant* component as an
inevitability? And I *think* EricC's questioning of
that assumption?</p>
<p>How *do* our political parties "precess" in higher
dimensional space such that the subdominant components
can "flip" entirely... how did the party of Lincoln
Republicans who rejected secession and abolished
Slavery and their opposition which had a strong
component of what became formally the Dixiecrats,
effectively flip positions? The party that accused
(accuses?) their opposition of being "tax and
spenders" has become "print money and spenders". How
do deficit Hawks become Deficit Doves or Owls, and is
there an instantaneous "tunneling" between these
somewhat oppositional positions?</p>
<p><a href="https://citizenvox.org/2012/02/22/hawks-doves-and-owls-budget-policy-goes-to-the-zoo/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://citizenvox.org/2012/02/22/hawks-doves-and-owls-budget-policy-goes-to-the-zoo/</a></p>
<p>- Steve</p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">Thaniks, EricS for reading and
commenting on the Amy Interview I am such a
benighted, naïve, stupid, optimist. I can imagine
that if she were an Obama nominee, I would be
saying, “We have a good one here!”</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nicholas Thompson</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Emeritus Professor of Ethology
and Psychology</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Clark University</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"><span style="color:#0563c1">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"><span style="color:#0563c1">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">
<friam-bounces@redfish.com></a> <b>On
Behalf Of </b>David Eric Smith<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, October 10, 2020 3:47 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
Coffee Group <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">
<friam@redfish.com></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] labels</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Yes, and not only Ugh.</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The two places this bothers me
as a category error are:</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">1. It conflates writing the
rules of the game and being a player in the game.
Shubik used to harp on this: that the government’s
role as the declarer of monetary policy, and as
the participant in fiscal policy, were roles at
different levels, game designer versus large
atomic player. The category isn’t quite as clean
here, in that a rule targeting balanced
affiliation isn’t exactly the same as playing for
one side. It is a bit more like certain monkey
societies, in which the problem-solver steps in on
the side of whoever is being attacked to lessen
the asymmetry.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">But it still feels like it has
a related problem, of defining an outer law
(constitution or statute for structure of the
court) in terms of a non-legal convention (the
particular parties and how they are non-formally
categorized and weighted in the society at this
time), and that feels completely unstable against
drift. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">A more mechanism-design-y thing
would be to revisit whichever Federalist Paper it
was that talked about the destabilizing role of
parties, never imagining the technologies for
coordination that would be available to them 230
years later, and ask what the mechanism update is
to the constitution in a world where instabilities
toward consolidation are so extreme. Kind of the
same spirit as revisiting capitalist property
rights laws when a warehouser and distributor can
come to own the whole economy.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">2. In the Coney Barrett talk
that Nick circulated, she made an important point
that should be true, even if we could argue that
it is a smokescreen that isn’t true in reality.
She says “liberal/conservative” in regard to the
interpretation of constitutional law are different
categories from “liberal/conservative” as
political affiliations. She probably even
believes it, though I expect that her SCOTUS
decisions will magically align with the political
axes 100% of the time, and one must ask how that
happens to always be the case. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Of course, the question is
whether it is all disingenuous. Thomas Edsall had
a decent article in NYT a few days ago on
originalism/living-text definitions, that was
right on the thread we were on. It is interesting
that the opponents of each side make _exactly_ the
same accusation toward it: that the side they are
criticizing has no real method and is a program
for rationalizing whatever outcome the judge
wanted politically. To the extent that that is
true in substance, if obfuscated in appearance,
then Coney Barrett’s claim that they are different
categories is a falsehood. One wonders then at
what level of argument one could force her to
acknowledge that error.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Eric. </p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
</p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Oct 9, 2020, at 11:18
PM, Eric Charles <<a href="mailto:eric.phillip.charles@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">eric.phillip.charles@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">--- reconfigure
(expand) it from 9 to 15 but<br>
*balance* the Left/Right ideology (I think
he proposed 5/5) and then ---------</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Note that
one thing both parties agree
on is that we should
conceive politics as utterly
and completely a choice
between the two of them. God
forbid that we conceive of
judges using any other
dimensions. In fact, let's
enshrine it in law that we
must forever focus on
exactly whether we have a
"balance" of "left" and
"right". Ugh!</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Oct 8, 2020
at 4:48 PM Steve Smith <<a href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">sasmyth@swcp.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">Ha! I refer to the
last bit as "ok fine, TWIST my drinking
arm!" when<br>
someone offers to buy me one... the
only one to twists my drinking arm<br>
this last six months has been Mary...
and Maybe Stephen and his circle<br>
on "ZoomGrappaNight".<br>
<br>
I don't like the language around
"packing the court". I don't think<br>
"reconfiguring the court" is the same as
"packing the court". Clearly,<br>
the (not so) loyal opposition to the
Dems *would* pack the court... add<br>
6 more justices and make sure they are
ALL conservative leaners. Pete<br>
Buttegeig was the first to speak of this
in my earshot, and HIS version<br>
sounded pretty reasonable...
reconfigure (expand) it from 9 to 15 but<br>
*balance* the Left/Right ideology (I
think he proposed 5/5) and then<br>
leave it to the Justices themselves to
fill the remaining 5 (through<br>
some arcane process?). What the
Republicans have been building up to<br>
for decades is "packing the courts". <br>
<br>
Checks and balances are tricky, as is
depending on social norms and<br>
standards, but I think it might be "as
good as it gets", at least for<br>
the time being.<br>
<br>
- Steve<br>
<br>
<br>
On 10/8/20 1:36 PM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote:<br>
> Ha! That was the essence of one of
the 538 panel member's phrasing
suggestion for Kamala Harris in response
to Pence's question about packing
SCOTUS. The elaborated version was:
"Because confirming Barrett, NOW, is
such a horribly wrong thing to do, we
have no choice BUT to pack the court."
... I.e. now look what you made me do.
That was my dad's favorite phrase to
justify whatever abuse he chose to mete
out that day. He once ran over my
bicycle with his truck. I *made* him run
over my bike because I left it laying in
the driveway. It's a running joke with
my fellow drinkers who *regularly* FORCE
me to drink more than I should. There is
no free will. I live to serve.<br>
><br>
> On 10/8/20 11:28 AM, Marcus Daniels
wrote:<br>
>> Look what you made me do,<br>
<br>
<br>
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