<div dir="auto">Wait, what?  Eigenvectors are properties of a linear transformation from a space to itself.  What's the space and what's the linear transformation?  Principal components analysis is a method of spanning a space of variables with one of lower dimension.<div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Or are you speaking metaphorically?<br><br><div data-smartmail="gmail_signature" dir="auto">---<br>Frank C. Wimberly<br>140 Calle Ojo Feliz, <br>Santa Fe, NM 87505<br><br>505 670-9918<br>Santa Fe, NM</div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 12:27 PM Steve Smith <<a href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com">sasmyth@swcp.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
  
    
  
  <div>
    <p>Marcus -</p>
    <p>(in mild agreement/acknowledgement of your point as I understand
      it)<br>
    </p>
    <p>I suppose my own biases about human nature are that we are driven
      along an internal greed/fear axis which is then "weaponized" by
      the politicos.   The Right seems particularly adept at both, while
      impugning the Left as if they are the ones playing those trump
      (Trump?) cards...   <br>
    </p>
    <p>Other axes such as equality/equanimity,   group loyalty/deference
      to authority, etc.   seem *somewhat* orthogonal..    <br>
    </p>
    <p>I suspect the terms "Progressive" and "Conservative" don't really
      capture what is actually exhibited/explored by the Left/Right
      tug-of war.   I know that as I have aged/matured/evolved I've
      become *much* more socially progressive whilst feeling much more
      conservative about progress itself... not trusting the headlong
      rush we are on, while acknowledging that it is (somewhat)
      inevitable.</p>
    <p>Following the arc of SteveG's ideas about collective
      intelligence, least/stationary action, bidirectional path-tracing
      as a paradigm that eclipses or replaces or maybe subsumes  (neo)
      Darwinism and Paternalism,  I also feel that we are overdue for
      some fundamental refactoring of our collective models/paradigms.  
      I'm no more interested in the style of Pol Pot's Communism than I
      am in Hitler's Fascism or Stalin's Fascism-disguised-as-Socialism
      than I am in Trump's variants on the same.   They seem like they
      are all aberrant excursions into a highly compressed (projection)
      subspace that is at best a *shadow* of what is really
      needed/possible.</p>
    <p>- Steve<br>
    </p>
    <div>On 10/10/20 11:37 AM, Marcus Daniels
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      
      
      
      <div>
        <p class="MsoNormal">My model is that people lean left and right
          as a developmental aspect of personality, and the parties
          mimic but also manipulate those patterns.    People really
          must be gamed and manipulated by politicians because even the
          best-intentioned people are often ignorant of the complexity
          of the population and the practicalities of governance. 
            Worse, many people are blamers who have nothing to add
          beyond What’s In It For Me.  
          <u></u><u></u></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam
              <a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a> <b>On Behalf Of
              </b>Steve Smith<br>
              <b>Sent:</b> Saturday, October 10, 2020 9:55 AM<br>
              <b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">friam@redfish.com</a><br>
              <b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] labels<u></u><u></u></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
        <p>Nick- <u></u><u></u></p>
        <p>Not trying to ding you personally for this, but this kind of
          blind deference to authority/party/tribe/loyalty is one of the
          mechanisms I'm trying to tease a part with Marcus' reference
          to the Left/Right *dominant* component as an inevitability? 
          And I *think* EricC's questioning of that assumption?<u></u><u></u></p>
        <p>How *do* our political parties "precess" in higher
          dimensional space such that the subdominant components can
          "flip" entirely...   how did the party of Lincoln Republicans
          who rejected secession and abolished Slavery and their
          opposition which had a strong component of what became
          formally the Dixiecrats, effectively flip positions?   The
          party that accused (accuses?) their opposition of being "tax
          and spenders" has become "print money and spenders".   How do
          deficit Hawks become Deficit Doves or Owls, and is there an
          instantaneous "tunneling" between these somewhat oppositional
          positions?<u></u><u></u></p>
        <p><a href="https://citizenvox.org/2012/02/22/hawks-doves-and-owls-budget-policy-goes-to-the-zoo/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://citizenvox.org/2012/02/22/hawks-doves-and-owls-budget-policy-goes-to-the-zoo/</a><u></u><u></u></p>
        <p>- Steve<u></u><u></u></p>
        <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
          <p class="MsoNormal">Thaniks, EricS for reading and commenting
            on the Amy Interview  I am such a benighted, naïve, stupid,
            optimist.  I can imagine that if she were an Obama nominee,
            I would be saying, “We have a good one here!”<u></u><u></u></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">Nicholas Thompson<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal">Emeritus Professor of Ethology and
              Psychology<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal">Clark University<u></u><u></u></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"><span style="color:#0563c1">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"><span style="color:#0563c1">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
          <div>
            <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">
                  <friam-bounces@redfish.com></a> <b>On Behalf Of
                </b>David Eric Smith<br>
                <b>Sent:</b> Saturday, October 10, 2020 3:47 AM<br>
                <b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee
                Group <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">
                  <friam@redfish.com></a><br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] labels<u></u><u></u></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Yes, and not only Ugh.<u></u><u></u></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">The two places this bothers me as a
              category error are:<u></u><u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">1. It conflates writing the rules of
              the game and being a player in the game.  Shubik used to
              harp on this: that the government’s role as the declarer
              of monetary policy, and as the participant in fiscal
              policy, were roles at different levels, game designer
              versus large atomic player.  The category isn’t quite as
              clean here, in that a rule targeting balanced affiliation
              isn’t exactly the same as playing for one side.  It is a
              bit more like certain monkey societies, in which the
              problem-solver steps in on the side of whoever is being
              attacked to lessen the asymmetry.<u></u><u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">But it still feels like it has a
              related problem, of defining an outer law (constitution or
              statute for structure of the court) in terms of a
              non-legal convention (the particular parties and how they
              are non-formally categorized and weighted in the society
              at this time), and that feels completely unstable against
              drift.  <u></u><u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">A more mechanism-design-y thing would
              be to revisit whichever Federalist Paper it was that
              talked about the destabilizing role of parties, never
              imagining the technologies for coordination that would be
              available to them 230 years later, and ask what the
              mechanism update is to the constitution in a world where
              instabilities toward consolidation are so extreme.  Kind
              of the same spirit as revisiting capitalist property
              rights laws when a warehouser and distributor can come to
              own the whole economy.<u></u><u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">2. In the Coney Barrett talk that Nick
              circulated, she made an important point that should be
              true, even if we could argue that it is a smokescreen that
              isn’t true in reality.  She says “liberal/conservative” in
              regard to the interpretation of constitutional law are
              different categories from “liberal/conservative” as
              political affiliations.  She probably even believes it,
              though I expect that her SCOTUS decisions will magically
              align with the political axes 100% of the time, and one
              must ask how that happens to always be the case.  <u></u><u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">Of course, the question is whether it
              is all disingenuous.  Thomas Edsall had a decent article
              in NYT a few days ago on originalism/living-text
              definitions, that was right on the thread we were on.  It
              is interesting that the opponents of each side make
              _exactly_ the same accusation toward it: that the side
              they are criticizing has no real method and is a program
              for rationalizing whatever outcome the judge wanted
              politically.  To the extent that that is true in
              substance, if obfuscated in appearance, then Coney
              Barrett’s claim that they are different categories is a
              falsehood.  One wonders then at what level of argument one
              could force her to acknowledge that error.<u></u><u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">Eric. <u></u><u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
                <br>
                <br>
                <u></u><u></u></p>
              <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal">On Oct 9, 2020, at 11:18 PM, Eric
                    Charles <<a href="mailto:eric.phillip.charles@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">eric.phillip.charles@gmail.com</a>>
                    wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
                </div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
                <div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal">--- reconfigure (expand) it
                      from 9 to 15 but<br>
                      *balance* the Left/Right ideology (I think he
                      proposed 5/5) and then  ---------<u></u><u></u></p>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <div>
                          <div>
                            <div>
                              <div>
                                <div>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal">Note that one
                                    thing both parties agree on is that
                                    we should conceive politics as
                                    utterly and completely a choice
                                    between the two of them. God forbid
                                    that we conceive of judges using any
                                    other dimensions. In fact, let's
                                    enshrine it in law that we must
                                    forever focus on exactly whether we
                                    have a "balance" of "left" and
                                    "right". Ugh!<u></u><u></u></p>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
                  <div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Oct 8, 2020 at 4:48
                        PM Steve Smith <<a href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">sasmyth@swcp.com</a>>
                        wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
                    </div>
                    <blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                      <p class="MsoNormal">Ha!  I refer to the last bit
                        as "ok fine, TWIST my drinking arm!" when<br>
                        someone offers to buy me one...   the only one
                        to twists my drinking arm<br>
                        this last six months has been Mary... and Maybe
                        Stephen and his circle<br>
                        on "ZoomGrappaNight".<br>
                        <br>
                        I don't like the language around "packing the
                        court".   I don't think<br>
                        "reconfiguring the court" is the same as
                        "packing the court".   Clearly,<br>
                        the (not so) loyal opposition to the Dems
                        *would* pack the court...  add<br>
                        6 more justices and make sure they are ALL
                        conservative leaners.   Pete<br>
                        Buttegeig was the first to speak of this in my
                        earshot, and HIS version<br>
                        sounded pretty reasonable...   reconfigure
                        (expand) it from 9 to 15 but<br>
                        *balance* the Left/Right ideology (I think he
                        proposed 5/5) and then<br>
                        leave it to the Justices themselves to fill the
                        remaining 5 (through<br>
                        some arcane process?).    What the Republicans
                        have been building up to<br>
                        for decades is "packing the courts".   <br>
                        <br>
                        Checks and balances are tricky, as is depending
                        on social norms and<br>
                        standards, but I think it might be "as good as
                        it gets", at least for<br>
                        the time being.<br>
                        <br>
                        - Steve<br>
                        <br>
                        <br>
                        On 10/8/20 1:36 PM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote:<br>
                        > Ha! That was the essence of one of the 538
                        panel member's phrasing suggestion for Kamala
                        Harris in response to Pence's question about
                        packing SCOTUS. The elaborated version was:
                        "Because confirming Barrett, NOW, is such a
                        horribly wrong thing to do, we have no choice
                        BUT to pack the court." ... I.e. now look what
                        you made me do. That was my dad's favorite
                        phrase to justify whatever abuse he chose to
                        mete out that day. He once ran over my bicycle
                        with his truck. I *made* him run over my bike
                        because I left it laying in the driveway. It's a
                        running joke with my fellow drinkers who
                        *regularly* FORCE me to drink more than I
                        should. There is no free will. I live to serve.<br>
                        ><br>
                        > On 10/8/20 11:28 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:<br>
                        >> Look what you made me do,<br>
                        <br>
                        <br>
                        - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. ....
                        . .-. .<br>
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                          FRIAM-COMIC</a> <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,qMX6P95xw33fEDq5XPleqTxWs0O9aB7WZ6yMGijXAOWIHS2Lt5NtZOSJanSIUypD21_kG17KJGuC6krWtw4GFYixe5n4YCeGwqIPwjaExwo2VX9KNYvp&typo=1" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">
                          http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> <u></u><u></u></p>
                    </blockquote>
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                  <p class="MsoNormal">- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. ..
                    ... -..-. .... . .-. .<br>
                    FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
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                    <u></u><u></u></p>
                </div>
              </blockquote>
            </div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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          <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
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            <u></u><u></u></p>
          <pre>- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<u></u><u></u></pre>
          <pre>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<u></u><u></u></pre>
          <pre>Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
          <pre>un/subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
          <pre>archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
          <pre>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> <u></u><u></u></pre>
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      <br>
      <fieldset></fieldset>
      <pre>- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriamun/subscribe" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">bit.ly/virtualfriam
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archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a>
FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> 
</pre>
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- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<br>
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>
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</blockquote></div>