<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body>
<p>Nick- <br>
</p>
<p>Not trying to ding you personally for this, but this kind of
blind deference to authority/party/tribe/loyalty is one of the
mechanisms I'm trying to tease a part with Marcus' reference to
the Left/Right *dominant* component as an inevitability? And I
*think* EricC's questioning of that assumption?<br>
</p>
<p>How *do* our political parties "precess" in higher dimensional
space such that the subdominant components can "flip"
entirely... how did the party of Lincoln Republicans who
rejected secession and abolished Slavery and their opposition
which had a strong component of what became formally the
Dixiecrats, effectively flip positions? The party that accused
(accuses?) their opposition of being "tax and spenders" has become
"print money and spenders". How do deficit Hawks become Deficit
Doves or Owls, and is there an instantaneous "tunneling" between
these somewhat oppositional positions?</p>
<p><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://citizenvox.org/2012/02/22/hawks-doves-and-owls-budget-policy-goes-to-the-zoo/">https://citizenvox.org/2012/02/22/hawks-doves-and-owls-budget-policy-goes-to-the-zoo/</a></p>
<p>- Steve<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:05ad01d69f23$c07d57c0$41780740$@gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered
medium)">
<style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
span.EmailStyle21
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:windowtext;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;}
@page WordSection1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal">Thaniks, EricS for reading and commenting
on the Amy Interview I am such a benighted, naïve, stupid,
optimist. I can imagine that if she were an Obama nominee, I
would be saying, “We have a good one here!”<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nicholas Thompson<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Emeritus Professor of Ethology and
Psychology<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Clark University<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#0563C1">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#0563C1">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a> <b>On Behalf Of </b>David
Eric Smith<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, October 10, 2020 3:47 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee
Group <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com"><friam@redfish.com></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] labels<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Yes, and not only Ugh.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The two places this bothers me as a
category error are:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">1. It conflates writing the rules of the
game and being a player in the game. Shubik used to harp on
this: that the government’s role as the declarer of monetary
policy, and as the participant in fiscal policy, were roles
at different levels, game designer versus large atomic
player. The category isn’t quite as clean here, in that a
rule targeting balanced affiliation isn’t exactly the same
as playing for one side. It is a bit more like certain
monkey societies, in which the problem-solver steps in on
the side of whoever is being attacked to lessen the
asymmetry.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">But it still feels like it has a related
problem, of defining an outer law (constitution or statute
for structure of the court) in terms of a non-legal
convention (the particular parties and how they are
non-formally categorized and weighted in the society at this
time), and that feels completely unstable against drift. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">A more mechanism-design-y thing would be
to revisit whichever Federalist Paper it was that talked
about the destabilizing role of parties, never imagining the
technologies for coordination that would be available to
them 230 years later, and ask what the mechanism update is
to the constitution in a world where instabilities toward
consolidation are so extreme. Kind of the same spirit as
revisiting capitalist property rights laws when a warehouser
and distributor can come to own the whole economy.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">2. In the Coney Barrett talk that Nick
circulated, she made an important point that should be true,
even if we could argue that it is a smokescreen that isn’t
true in reality. She says “liberal/conservative” in regard
to the interpretation of constitutional law are different
categories from “liberal/conservative” as political
affiliations. She probably even believes it, though I
expect that her SCOTUS decisions will magically align with
the political axes 100% of the time, and one must ask how
that happens to always be the case. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Of course, the question is whether it is
all disingenuous. Thomas Edsall had a decent article in NYT
a few days ago on originalism/living-text definitions, that
was right on the thread we were on. It is interesting that
the opponents of each side make _exactly_ the same
accusation toward it: that the side they are criticizing has
no real method and is a program for rationalizing whatever
outcome the judge wanted politically. To the extent that
that is true in substance, if obfuscated in appearance, then
Coney Barrett’s claim that they are different categories is
a falsehood. One wonders then at what level of argument one
could force her to acknowledge that error.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Eric. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Oct 9, 2020, at 11:18 PM, Eric
Charles <<a
href="mailto:eric.phillip.charles@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">eric.phillip.charles@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">--- reconfigure (expand) it from
9 to 15 but<br>
*balance* the Left/Right ideology (I think he
proposed 5/5) and then ---------<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Note that one thing
both parties agree on is that we
should conceive politics as utterly
and completely a choice between the
two of them. God forbid that we
conceive of judges using any other
dimensions. In fact, let's enshrine it
in law that we must forever focus on
exactly whether we have a "balance" of
"left" and "right". Ugh!<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Oct 8, 2020 at 4:48 PM
Steve Smith <<a href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">sasmyth@swcp.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<p class="MsoNormal">Ha! I refer to the last bit as
"ok fine, TWIST my drinking arm!" when<br>
someone offers to buy me one... the only one to
twists my drinking arm<br>
this last six months has been Mary... and Maybe
Stephen and his circle<br>
on "ZoomGrappaNight".<br>
<br>
I don't like the language around "packing the
court". I don't think<br>
"reconfiguring the court" is the same as "packing
the court". Clearly,<br>
the (not so) loyal opposition to the Dems *would*
pack the court... add<br>
6 more justices and make sure they are ALL
conservative leaners. Pete<br>
Buttegeig was the first to speak of this in my
earshot, and HIS version<br>
sounded pretty reasonable... reconfigure
(expand) it from 9 to 15 but<br>
*balance* the Left/Right ideology (I think he
proposed 5/5) and then<br>
leave it to the Justices themselves to fill the
remaining 5 (through<br>
some arcane process?). What the Republicans
have been building up to<br>
for decades is "packing the courts". <br>
<br>
Checks and balances are tricky, as is depending on
social norms and<br>
standards, but I think it might be "as good as it
gets", at least for<br>
the time being.<br>
<br>
- Steve<br>
<br>
<br>
On 10/8/20 1:36 PM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote:<br>
> Ha! That was the essence of one of the 538
panel member's phrasing suggestion for Kamala
Harris in response to Pence's question about
packing SCOTUS. The elaborated version was:
"Because confirming Barrett, NOW, is such a
horribly wrong thing to do, we have no choice BUT
to pack the court." ... I.e. now look what you
made me do. That was my dad's favorite phrase to
justify whatever abuse he chose to mete out that
day. He once ran over my bicycle with his truck. I
*made* him run over my bike because I left it
laying in the driveway. It's a running joke with
my fellow drinkers who *regularly* FORCE me to
drink more than I should. There is no free will. I
live to serve.<br>
><br>
> On 10/8/20 11:28 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:<br>
>> Look what you made me do,<br>
<br>
<br>
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... .
.-. .<br>
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a
href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,URHTYCOflB74O-_DI0dbEhUwuhzDGYhdSf7LRjl8tLmkmBJe0loSf3HRqMO-h67RLZ4QLL-6H3NYMq-vHO34GaSjKIco4zOUls70uHzwTBIWcvHn&typo=1"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>
un/subscribe <a
href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,oX4UeygX7WyjK2Xi8iHb-qXD9vWPVWi6XsrTB90sewU0zpNs-mvdsgHfOL2worw-ytWZ_18lnGwWfXgvRIFun1zpllz0K6lj9e3ZS4-6bI1o&typo=1"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>
archives: <a
href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/FRIAM-COMIC"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/<br>
FRIAM-COMIC</a> <a
href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,qMX6P95xw33fEDq5XPleqTxWs0O9aB7WZ6yMGijXAOWIHS2Lt5NtZOSJanSIUypD21_kG17KJGuC6krWtw4GFYixe5n4YCeGwqIPwjaExwo2VX9KNYvp&typo=1"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. ..
... -..-. .... . .-. .<br>
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a
href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam"
moz-do-not-send="true">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br>
un/subscribe <a
href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,lZ9NlezAXRM1UtFBcPexp2OE5s5wCsat6c9eCh64km3EUesmzcIlKDfzSs9ZrJuMbsPJnP2WfadsCxnvI86yjYhX0VdrsjiRNTioFNEl4yQ,&typo=1"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,lZ9NlezAXRM1UtFBcPexp2OE5s5wCsat6c9eCh64km3EUesmzcIlKDfzSs9ZrJuMbsPJnP2WfadsCxnvI86yjYhX0VdrsjiRNTioFNEl4yQ,&typo=1</a><br>
archives: <a
href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br>
FRIAM-COMIC <a
href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,gAOKowwHhfsjxEeiJJ_3atSEBLz9pnU4UB3PBeOugHijREv3dfYC6ZaCsd6P40vUQJMuRXqDXu5JS1lb8Ktvn4Lf5hfdWyqtxhNRrHHmZkORJPyag89AuA,,&typo=1"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,gAOKowwHhfsjxEeiJJ_3atSEBLz9pnU4UB3PBeOugHijREv3dfYC6ZaCsd6P40vUQJMuRXqDXu5JS1lb8Ktvn4Lf5hfdWyqtxhNRrHHmZkORJPyag89AuA,,&typo=1</a>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a>
archives: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a>
FRIAM-COMIC <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>