<!DOCTYPE html><html><head><title></title><style type="text/css">p.MsoNormal,p.MsoNoSpacing{margin:0}</style></head><body><div style="font-family:Arial;">Carl is very Japanese and master of Drum Zen.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">davew<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div>On Mon, Oct 12, 2020, at 8:50 PM, Steve Smith wrote:<br></div><blockquote type="cite" id="qt" style=""><p>Carl -<br></p><div class="qt-moz-cite-prefix">Acknowledged.   The
      foreground/background thing is always tricky.   I don't mean to
      attribute any reality to "personal freedoms", yet somehow "not
      being an ass" is something *like* respecting others "personal
      freedoms", even though such are in some sense an illusion.  
      Perhaps someone can articulate this better than I have?<br></div><div class="qt-moz-cite-prefix"><br></div><div class="qt-moz-cite-prefix">- Steve<br></div><blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:CAFi2r0jAVgjCa=D6fU3fYW=Emm2kXfHCbMwvv6iQ6m6qsf9Q=A@mail.gmail.com"><div dir="ltr"><div>Steve, <br></div><div><br></div><div>You assume I have some fealty to the notion of "personal
          freedoms".   Perhaps that is unwarranted.   I just see no
          reason to be an ass.<br></div><div><br></div><blockquote style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:40px;border-top-color:currentcolor;border-top-style:none;border-top-width:medium;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-right-style:none;border-right-width:medium;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-style:none;border-bottom-width:medium;border-left-color:currentcolor;border-left-style:none;border-left-width:medium;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1;padding-top:0px;padding-right:0px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-left:0px;"><div>>>I don't know you well Carl, but from what I do
            think I know, you are clearly *very* independent and *very*
            considerate of others and their personal freedoms.  That
            sounds pretty *l*ibertarian to me FWIW.<br></div></blockquote></div><div><br></div><div class="qt-gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="qt-gmail_attr">On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 10:18
          AM Steve Smith <<a href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com">sasmyth@swcp.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="qt-gmail_quote" style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left-color:rgb(204, 204, 204);border-left-style:solid;border-left-width:1px;padding-left:1ex;"><div><div>Carl Tollander wrote:<br></div><div> <br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div>-9,-8.1 <br></div><div>But I do think it would depend a bit on the day.<br></div><div>Oddly, never thought of myself as a libertarian.<br></div></div></blockquote><p>I think some pretty strong *Fascists* co-opted the term
              "Libertarian" for themselves.   My experience with the
              *L*ibertarian self-identified is they seem to lean toward
              a virulent extremist willingness to *assert their will* on
              others under the guise of protecting *their will from
              subversion* .   When I was younger (more juiced on the
              hormones and rhetoric and appeal of competition?) I was
              more seduced by some of that.  Now it just makes me feel
              systemically ill.<br></p><p>I don't know you well Carl, but from what I do think I
              know, you are clearly *very* independent and *very*
              considerate of others and their personal freedoms.  That
              sounds pretty *l*ibertarian to me FWIW.<br></p><p>- Steve<br></p><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div><br></div></div><div><br></div><div class="qt-gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="qt-gmail_attr">On Mon, Oct 12, 2020
                  at 8:48 AM Marcus Daniels <<a href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com" target="_blank">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>>
                  wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="qt-gmail_quote" style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left-color:rgb(204, 204, 204);border-left-style:solid;border-left-width:1px;padding-left:1ex;"><div lang="EN-US"><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">There is another aspect of
                        staying behind which puts more weight on
                        maintaining local (e.g. family and childhood)
                        relationships.   I don’t think this inclination
                        is overtly authoritarian.   However, a strong
                        desire to maintain a social fabric could lead to
                        policing mechanisms for them, and that brings in
                        (say) the church.  When a social network is more
                        important than having any sort of purpose, weird
                        things happen.   Wired has an article on some
                        crazies up in Forks, Washington that is worth a
                        skim. <br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p><div><div style="border-right-color:currentcolor;border-right-style:none;border-right-width:medium;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-style:none;border-bottom-width:medium;border-left-color:currentcolor;border-left-style:none;border-left-width:medium;border-top-color:rgb(225, 225, 225);border-top-style:solid;border-top-width:1pt;padding-top:3pt;padding-right:0in;padding-bottom:0in;padding-left:0in;"><p class="qt-MsoNormal"></p><div><b>From:</b> Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>David Eric Smith<br></div><div> <b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 12, 2020 7:35
                            AM<br></div><div> <b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied
                            Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam@redfish.com</a>><br></div><div> <b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Political
                            compass teest<br></div><p></p></div></div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal">So this is metastasizing now,
                        and there have been other decades when it wasn’t
                        such a problem, or at least not as overt.<br></p><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">Is that due to demographic
                          sorting?  In more prosperous (or even just
                          earlier) times, enough people stayed near
                          where they were born that cultures got some
                          mix of preferences, and you didn’t have whole
                          regions “submitting too much to the
                          authorities in their lives”.  But when those
                          who wanted out could get out, and did so
                          systematically, the ones who stayed behind
                          could create a tailored paradise for the
                          preferences that had caused them to stay
                          behind?<br></p><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"></p><div><br></div><p></p><blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;"><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">On Oct 12, 2020, at
                                10:19 AM, Roger Critchlow <<a href="mailto:rec@elf.org" target="_blank">rec@elf.org</a>>
                                wrote:<br></p></div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p><div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><a href="https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/10/12/trump-voter-authoritarian-research/" target="_blank">https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/10/12/trump-voter-authoritarian-research/</a><br></p><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">-- rec --<br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p></div></div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p><div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">On Sun, Oct 11,
                                    2020 at 12:27 AM Marcus Daniels <<a href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com" target="_blank">marcus@snoutfarm.com</a>>
                                    wrote:<br></p></div><blockquote style="border-top-color:currentcolor;border-top-style:none;border-top-width:medium;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-right-style:none;border-right-width:medium;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-style:none;border-bottom-width:medium;border-left-color:rgb(204, 204, 204);border-left-style:solid;border-left-width:1pt;padding-top:0in;padding-right:0in;padding-bottom:0in;padding-left:6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in;"><div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">There’s a
                                        page on the 2020 election where
                                        they claim, among other strange
                                        things, that Warren is a
                                        right-leaning authoritarian.  
                                        If that is true, which I doubt,
                                        it says to me politicians are
                                        mirroring the electorate in a
                                        very obscure way.   And I am
                                        pretty sure I am not far to the
                                        left of Bernie Sanders. <br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p><div style="border-right-color:currentcolor;border-right-style:none;border-right-width:medium;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-style:none;border-bottom-width:medium;border-left-color:currentcolor;border-left-style:none;border-left-width:medium;border-top-color:rgb(225, 225, 225);border-top-style:solid;border-top-width:1pt;padding-top:3pt;padding-right:0in;padding-bottom:0in;padding-left:0in;"><p class="qt-MsoNormal"></p><div><b>From:</b> Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Stephen
                                          Guerin<br></div><div> <b>Sent:</b> Saturday, October
                                          10, 2020 8:39 PM<br></div><div> <b>To:</b> The Friday Morning
                                          Applied Complexity Coffee
                                          Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam@redfish.com</a>><br></div><div> <b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM]
                                          Political compass teest<br></div><p></p></div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">ec=-5.75
                                          & soc=-6.3<br></p><div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p></div></div></div></div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p><div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">On Sat,
                                            Oct 10, 2020, 9:18 PM <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" target="_blank">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>>
                                            wrote:<br></p></div><blockquote style="border-top-color:currentcolor;border-top-style:none;border-top-width:medium;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-right-style:none;border-right-width:medium;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-style:none;border-bottom-width:medium;border-left-color:rgb(204, 204, 204);border-left-style:solid;border-left-width:1pt;padding-top:0in;padding-right:0in;padding-bottom:0in;padding-left:6pt;margin-top:5pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5pt;margin-left:4.8pt;"><div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">I’m
                                                more of a libertarian
                                                than Dave is?  Something
                                                MUST be wrong, here.<br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">Nicholas
                                                  Thompson<br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal">Emeritus
                                                  Professor of Ethology
                                                  and Psychology<br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal">Clark
                                                  University<br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(5, 99, 193);">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,U3OccPSjskXK4svW9X1qk3Vv7E5UwkKy9mLBuwBfoPfJKYxJ6aCBK0PVs7udT_TYGhprp1R603GJlx6xKqM35rw3C-x7J0zwGZ6_tMf3hqMPHZB64xRxPw,,&typo=1" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(5, 99, 193);">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><br></p><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p><div><div style="border-right-color:currentcolor;border-right-style:none;border-right-width:medium;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-style:none;border-bottom-width:medium;border-left-color:currentcolor;border-left-style:none;border-left-width:medium;border-top-color:rgb(225, 225, 225);border-top-style:solid;border-top-width:1pt;padding-top:3pt;padding-right:0in;padding-bottom:0in;padding-left:0in;"><p class="qt-MsoNormal"></p><div><b>From:</b> Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Prof
                                                    David West<br></div><div> <b>Sent:</b> Saturday, October
                                                    10, 2020 6:39 PM<br></div><div> <b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam@redfish.com</a><br></div><div> <b>Subject:</b> Re:
                                                    [FRIAM] Political
                                                    compass teest<br></div><p></p></div></div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;">Econ left/right:      -0.88</span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;">Social Lib/Auth:     -6.1</span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;">davew</span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;">NOT a Libertarian</span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;"> </span></span><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">On
                                                  Sat, Oct 10, 2020, at
                                                  5:56 PM, <a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" target="_blank">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a> wrote:<br></p></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;" id="qt-gmail-m_-6791402764200805358gmail-m_7765795420829808861gmail-m_-8682206521367141913m_-6349746993548423742qt"><div><p>Do we all agree at
                                                    an insanely high
                                                    level?  Then wtf
                                                    have we been arguing
                                                    about all these
                                                    years.  Let’s wait
                                                    until Glen and Dave
                                                    take the test before
                                                    we bury all our
                                                    hatchets.<br></p><p> <br></p><p>n<br></p><p> <br></p><p>Nicholas Thompson<br></p><p>Emeritus Professor
                                                    of Ethology and
                                                    Psychology<br></p><p>Clark University<br></p><p><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(5, 99, 193);">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><br></p><p><a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,jI9pg2_C34oOCpyabOwNVYM7KJGCPx7H3EupAcE2q9TK2V75UO7IrMX_UOS1TIZ0puSAcbRFu09JGz8yK4gzt6DIJCqNtiA3EEOMsqYT64DoqXJS7TM,&typo=1" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(5, 99, 193);">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><br></p><p> <br></p><p> <br></p><p> <br></p><div style="border-top-color:rgb(225, 225, 225);border-top-style:solid;border-top-width:1pt;padding-top:3pt;padding-right:0in;padding-bottom:0in;padding-left:0in;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-right-style:none;border-right-width:medium;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-style:none;border-bottom-width:medium;border-left-color:currentcolor;border-left-style:none;border-left-width:medium;"><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Gary Schiltz<br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><b>Sent:</b> Saturday,
                                                        October 10, 2020
                                                        5:29 PM<br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><b>To:</b> The Friday
                                                        Morning Applied
                                                        Complexity
                                                        Coffee Group
                                                        <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank">friam@redfish.com</a>><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM]
                                                        Political
                                                        compass teest<br></p></div></div><p> <br></p><div><p>I was pretty much
                                                      dead center in the
                                                      lower left
                                                      quadrant, which
                                                      was surprising to
                                                      me. I would have
                                                      thought I would be
                                                      in the middle of
                                                      the whole graph.<br></p></div><p> <br></p><div><div><p>On Sat, Oct 10,
                                                        2020 at 4:52 PM
                                                        George Duncan
                                                        <<a href="mailto:gtduncan@gmail.com" target="_blank">gtduncan@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></p></div><blockquote style="border-left-color:rgb(204, 204, 204);border-left-style:solid;border-left-width:1pt;padding-top:0in;padding-right:0in;padding-bottom:0in;padding-left:6pt;margin-top:5pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5pt;margin-left:4.8pt;border-top-color:currentcolor;border-top-style:none;border-top-width:medium;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-right-style:none;border-right-width:medium;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-style:none;border-bottom-width:medium;"><div><div><p><span><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:Tahoma, sans-serif;"><span class="size" style="font-size:18pt;">Jon, I took it. I'm
                                                          barely left on
                                                          economics and
                                                          strongly
                                                          libertarian on
                                                          social issues</span></span></span></span><br></p></div><div><p><span><span style=""><span class="font" style="font-family:Tahoma, sans-serif;"><span class="size" style="font-size:18pt;"> </span></span></span></span><br></p></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><p>George
                                                          Duncan<br></p></div><div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">Emeritus
                                                          Professor of
                                                          Statistics,
                                                          Carnegie
                                                          Mellon
                                                          University<br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fgeorgeduncanart.com%2f&c=E,1,7A1nvLLwvbARh5EsbrcBP_x1ncqDWHW84o2ARPieWFtHxbGsgklMKBqeuNgbEd_czryT4FTxDDbM2mCDHXdJbmd_5-i0Yf4oVpAGGN27uHZ8&typo=1" target="_blank">georgeduncanart.com</a><br></p></div></div><div><p>See posts
                                                          on Facebook,
                                                          Twitter, and
                                                          Instagram<br></p></div><div><p>Land: (505)
                                                          983-6895  <br></p></div><div><p>Mobile:
                                                          (505) 469-4671<br></p></div><div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">My
                                                          art theme:
                                                          Dynamic
                                                          exposition of
                                                          the tension
                                                          between matrix
                                                          order and
                                                          luminous
                                                          chaos.<br></p></div></div><div><p> <br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><span><span style="letter-spacing:-0.25pt;"><span class="font" style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;"><span class="size" style="font-size:10pt;">"Attempt
                                                          what is not
                                                          certain.
                                                          Certainty may
                                                          or may not
                                                          come later. It
                                                          may then be a
                                                          valuable
                                                          delusion."</span></span></span></span><br></p><div><p><span><span style="letter-spacing:-0.25pt;"><span class="font" style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;"><span class="size" style="font-size:12pt;">From
                                                          "Notes to
                                                          myself on
                                                          beginning a
                                                          painting" by
                                                          Richard
                                                          Diebenkorn. </span></span></span></span><br></p></div><table style="width:85%;border-collapse:collapse;" width="85%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"><tbody><tr><td style="padding-top:0.75pt;padding-right:0.75pt;padding-bottom:0.75pt;padding-left:0.75pt;"><p class="qt-MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:9pt;text-align:center;" align="center"><span><span style="color:rgb(93, 86, 81);"><span class="font" style="font-family:Helvetica, sans-serif;"><span class="size" style="font-size:10pt;">"It's
                                                          that
                                                          knife-edge of
                                                          uncertainty
                                                          where we come
                                                          alive to our
                                                          truest power."
                                                          Joanna Macy.</span></span></span></span><br></p></td></tr><tr><td style="padding-top:0.75pt;padding-right:0.75pt;padding-bottom:0.75pt;padding-left:0.75pt;" valign="top"><br></td></tr></tbody></table></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><p><span style="color:white;"> </span><br></p></div><p> <br></p><div><div><p>On Sat, Oct
                                                          10, 2020 at
                                                          3:22 PM jon
                                                          zingale <<a href="mailto:jonzingale@gmail.com" target="_blank">jonzingale@gmail.com</a>>
                                                          wrote:<br></p></div><blockquote style="border-left-color:rgb(204, 204, 204);border-left-style:solid;border-left-width:1pt;padding-top:0in;padding-right:0in;padding-bottom:0in;padding-left:6pt;margin-top:5pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5pt;margin-left:4.8pt;border-top-color:currentcolor;border-top-style:none;border-top-width:medium;border-right-color:currentcolor;border-right-style:none;border-right-width:medium;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-style:none;border-bottom-width:medium;"><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">I
                                                          just took the
                                                          political
                                                          compass test
                                                          and surprise
                                                          surprise, I am
                                                          a<br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">left-libertarian.<br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">Take
                                                          the test here
                                                          if you are
                                                          interested:<br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.politicalcompass.org%2ftest&c=E,1,e8hAuyhPdtiZ876M9sd6OmWzNeLJXSYR8MHrODvh3vN2g_nLrK21RY_5OBeUJlK4p0Rzh08Ymx64c4LiIgp7JiIDXXzqbbqx3zHFw_W8CPvxLq3_SnjwgA,,&typo=1" target="_blank">https://www.politicalcompass.org/test</a><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"><<a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/file/t395744/Screen_Shot_2020-10-10_at_3.png" target="_blank">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/file/t395744/Screen_Shot_2020-10-10_at_3.png</a>><br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal"> <br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">--<br></p></div><div><p class="qt-MsoNormal">Sent
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