<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">But that’s exactly not the set of relations they want to invoke with the word “self-organization”. Not organization imposed by a scaffold. Organization that reflects a loss of access to a large subset of arrangements, for reasons that appeal only to the “ordinary” local properties of the system that you already knew, but that have consequences for very non-local regularities that the small-scale features don’t seem to be “about”.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Things get interesting when we get to viral capsids. They exploit properties of statistical mechanics that enable you, by controlling the shape and surface properties of some small, rigid proteins, to manage the assembly of quite large and structured ribonucleoprotein complexes. On the other hand, the information-carrying library that ensures those coat proteins will have forms that do assemble with functional consequences, is an outcome of Bayesian filtering according to regularities in environments.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">So there is a part that uses the mechanics of "self-organization”, but only for the rightly-configured participants. Chance favors the prepared mind. The gods help those who help themselves (or in this case, the gods set those up to help themselves).</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Eric</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Oct 29, 2020, at 3:39 PM, <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" class="">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>> <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" class="">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Dave,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Ontology, schmontology. As others have pointed out, mine is just a trivial logical point. Let the self (Sx) be any kind of thing (Tx) at all. Let assembly be a process of putting things together to make a new thing. S1 + T1 = S2 + T2 = etc. At each point the self that is assembled is not the self that is assembling, no? I think, on the whole, it would be better if we spoke not of self assembly, but of scaffolding where something external to the structure being formed, facilitates the formation of the structure. So at each stage in the assembly, the previous stage “scaffolds” the next. White smokers scaffolded the formation of life. Life scaffolded the further evolution of life. The genome is a scaffold for natural selection. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Nicholas Thompson<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Clark University<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(5, 99, 193);" class="">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,-9eA0tpcGk9pd5OHwVPFZ791KirZei_eJawe0TpH2mQQh4T_CothRzV6kAT-r6c8rxSP1ri8cM7AiYAqGFm5bQnKnpsutj1uNPz3usqZODg,&typo=1" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(5, 99, 193);" class="">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class="">From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Prof David West<br class=""><b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Thursday, October 29, 2020 8:04 AM<br class=""><b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">friam@redfish.com</a><br class=""><b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">Nick,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><i class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">" I am always troubled by the notion of "self-assembly" since the self that is</span></i><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><i class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">assembling is never, by definition, the self that is assembled."</span></i><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">By what definition? Your monist view that the self lacks ontological status in the first place?<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">davew<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">On Wed, Oct 28, 2020, at 5:48 PM, <a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> Jon,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> Is a steam governor a case of downward causation?<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> This question will reveal, no doubt, that I don't understand your previous<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> answer, but perhaps others will explain it to me. <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> I am always troubled by the notion of "self-assembly" since the self that is<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> assembling is never, by definition, the self that is assembled. <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> Perhaps I am getting tangled up in words again. <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> n<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> Nicholas Thompson<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> Clark University<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> <a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</a><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,H4iSezwAWby322D_ahy0aIh7MEXifMvdqHq4hHBSZ30wZfjKsrDhbeju733P9Qv-QPN3SuldVSHyJD5xE_uL7p36t7ovHvenB1KmwckqSMBWrFda5w,,&typo=1" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</a><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> -----Original Message-----<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> From: Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> On Behalf Of jon zingale<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2020 2:01 PM<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> To: <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">friam@redfish.com</a><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> Nick,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> Let's say I have a language designed to work with sticks, where for<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> instance, it makes sense to name certain relations *Triangle*. Additionally,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> let's assume that the language is detailed enough to include less obvious<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> relations such as those which relate sticks to trees to soil and water.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> Would it be cheap to narrowly define *downward causation* as the<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> manipulation of the world in accordance with this language to produce new<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> sticks?<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> Consider as another example when one manipulates charge in bulk using analog<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> filters. Here, a circuit designer may not need to know about spin or<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> superposition or a lot of other details about the universe. In fact, the<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> designer may not know how to write a "mid-frequency ranged filter" if they<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> were only given a quantum mechanical view of the world. They may, however,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> know how to build such a filter if they are given appropriately shaped<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> conductive surfaces and coils.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> My apologies in advance if this characterization (that of reducing *downward<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> causation* to manipulation of a domain-specific language) is horribly<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> flawed, but I spent this much time writing a response. So, there.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> --<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> Sent from: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,R0BnOupr3D5CuLoyJ4R_Xo5C_kVoxTEVjOE1Pfst8ql_IQfbYauwcpf6gL0LTBtgVzv-yIeOFZsETcHjz-Tc-vSWo6mBA4n9xaGwWxl6BB28Ye8FOprMwyqyFiI4&typo=1" style="color: blue; 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