<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">I’m actually quite on board with your wish to make these questions more interesting than they may have started out, Nick.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">And I also think you are right that the namers meant the names to carry weight. (Though I also think most thought is a bit hurried and careless, and gives itself more credit than is earned.)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The interesting struggle will be that the original calculation was in a way rather small, compared to the metaphor that many hope can be spun from it.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Or perhaps said another way, maybe many of these things that have weight to compel as we experience them in life, are pointers to little mechanics below the surface that, in its own terms, is a small thing.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I know that in each paper I write, I imagine getting at a big idea, and realize that the most I have done is a small calculation. So there is a foot in each boat….</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Best,</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Eric</div><div class=""><br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Oct 29, 2020, at 1:20 PM, <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" class="">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>> <<a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" class="">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8" class=""><meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)" class=""><style class=""><!--
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="word-wrap:break-word" class=""><div class="WordSection1"><div class="MsoNormal">Sorry everybody. I seem to be out of my depth in many pools at once. <o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal"> I really like Eric’s analysis. <o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal">I still want to protest abit. I think the dynamic relation between the physical concept and the physicist’s humanistic metaphor is much more interesting than this analysis would suggest. Physicists use those metaphors for a reasons, cognitive and communicatory. And humanists are right to explore their implications. Otherwise, it would be fair for the humanist to turn to the physicist and say, “Shut up and calculate.”<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal">The paradox of development (AKA epigenisis) is that there are all sorts of futures that can be known pretty precisely about a developing individual yet they are totally unknown to the individual that is developing. It has to do with our discussion of inten<b class=""><i class="">S</i></b>ion, a few months back. <o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal">It may also be time for one of you to be delegated to “elder” me, in the quaker tradition. “Now, Nick, ….”<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal">N .<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal">N<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">Nicholas Thompson<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal">Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal">Clark University<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com" class=""><span style="color:#0563C1" class="">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</span></a><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,8pikIqjsWmNuBHfzE3VVLQF4_vkvnGX1oPfmWg4qJVbO9ts2bygQUBET758DUPmA4dH0McR2MMXhK_cL-slNT6tfSaWx6GP41uIIowPT-1XJk62VKA,,&typo=1" class=""><span style="color:#0563C1" class="">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</span></a><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal"> <o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in" class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><b class="">From:</b> Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" class="">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> <b class="">On Behalf Of </b>David Eric Smith<br class=""><b class="">Sent:</b> Thursday, October 29, 2020 10:00 AM<br class=""><b class="">To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" class="">friam@redfish.com</a>><br class=""><b class="">Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal">I want to somehow say sigh and sigh on this thread.<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">It comes somehow straight out of Monty Python (Blessed are the cheesemakers….)<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">1. Some physicists figure out how to do a calculation, showing that some parts can go dynamically into an organized state, appealing to a combination of their own shapes and laws of large numbers for events that happen, and they don’t need to have the organized form imposed by any outside boundary conditions beyond the very low-level rules for how the events are sampled. They already knew this happens in equilibrium, because that is how anything freezes. But here they are seeing it in a dynamical context, where the ordered form happens to be more ordered than the states they could produce from somehow-similar components in equilibrium.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">2. Physicsts, like everyone, are usually impatient and don’t want to have to recite the whole operational meaning of something every time they want to refer to it in the course of saying something else.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">3. So the physicists come up with a tag. It should be sort of evocative, sort of catchy, and easy to remember. Aha! “Self-organization”, to keep in mind that the organization is resulting from low-level local features, and not from the boundary conditions imposed on the system beyond that local stuff.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">4. Nick encounters the term. It happens to contain two words about which he cares very very much, so to him they are not mere hackage generated by some physicists, but freighted with meaning.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">5. Nick starts a thread: Which self? Is it the same self before and after? Is “organized” here a transitive or an intransitive verb? If transitive, what is the object? Can the same referent be both object and subject of a transitive verb? Does that make the verb reflexive? What are the implications for monists? For dualists?<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">6. Friam is willing to engage.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">7. I write a long tedious email, trying to remind the humanists that the most important character trait of physicists is impatience. <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">Eric<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><br class=""><br class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt" class="" type="cite"><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">On Oct 29, 2020, at 10:03 AM, Prof David West <<a href="mailto:profwest@fastmail.fm" class="">profwest@fastmail.fm</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">Nick,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><i class=""><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">" I am always troubled by the notion of "self-assembly" since the self that is</span></i><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><i class=""><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">assembling is never, by definition, the self that is assembled."</span></i><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">By what definition? Your monist view that the self lacks ontological status in the first place?<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">davew<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">On Wed, Oct 28, 2020, at 5:48 PM, <a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com" class="">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">> Jon,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">> Is a steam governor a case of downward causation?<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">> This question will reveal, no doubt, that I don't understand your previous<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">> answer, but perhaps others will explain it to me. <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">> I am always troubled by the notion of "self-assembly" since the self that is<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">> assembling is never, by definition, the self that is assembled. <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">> Perhaps I am getting tangled up in words again. <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">> n<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">> Nicholas Thompson<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">> Clark University<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">> <a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com" class="">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</a><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">> <a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,aryOhfVU48KQtN6xZTrA9DuKF6rEe-ZppSYOdQn_1Py6Cpgt586u2buLg3DjT-c0qFESZFBn3sJm21uO2hXWV9yFGAeZn5lBmiyLY_mGvBNki6JGqZr5Vawr0Cc,&typo=1" class="">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</a><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">> -----Original Message-----<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">> From: Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" class="">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> On Behalf Of jon zingale<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">> Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2020 2:01 PM<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">> To: <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" class="">friam@redfish.com</a><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">> Nick,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">> Let's say I have a language designed to work with sticks, where for<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">> instance, it makes sense to name certain relations *Triangle*. Additionally,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">> let's assume that the language is detailed enough to include less obvious<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">> relations such as those which relate sticks to trees to soil and water.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">> Would it be cheap to narrowly define *downward causation* as the<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">> manipulation of the world in accordance with this language to produce new<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">> sticks?<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">> Consider as another example when one manipulates charge in bulk using analog<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">> filters. Here, a circuit designer may not need to know about spin or<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">> superposition or a lot of other details about the universe. In fact, the<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">> designer may not know how to write a "mid-frequency ranged filter" if they<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">> were only given a quantum mechanical view of the world. They may, however,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">> know how to build such a filter if they are given appropriately shaped<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">> conductive surfaces and coils.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">> My apologies in advance if this characterization (that of reducing *downward<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">> causation* to manipulation of a domain-specific language) is horribly<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">> flawed, but I spent this much time writing a response. So, there.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">> --<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" class="">> Sent from: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" class="">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif" 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