<!DOCTYPE html><html><head><title></title><style type="text/css">p.MsoNormal,p.MsoNoSpacing{margin:0}</style></head><body><div style="font-family:Arial;">Nick,<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><i>" I am always troubled by the notion of "self-assembly" since the self that is</i><i><br></i></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><i>assembling is never, by definition, the self that is assembled."</i><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">By what definition? Your monist view that the self lacks ontological status in the first place?<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">davew<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">On Wed, Oct 28, 2020, at 5:48 PM, <a href="mailto:thompnickson2@gmail.com">thompnickson2@gmail.com</a> wrote:<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> Jon,<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> Is a steam governor a case of downward causation?<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> This question will reveal, no doubt, that I don't understand your previous<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> answer, but perhaps others will explain it to me. <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> I am always troubled by the notion of "self-assembly" since the self that is<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> assembling is never, by definition, the self that is assembled. <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> Perhaps I am getting tangled up in words again. <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> n<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> Nicholas Thompson<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> Clark University<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <a href="mailto:ThompNickSon2@gmail.com">ThompNickSon2@gmail.com</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <a href="https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/">https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> -----Original Message-----<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> From: Friam <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>> On Behalf Of jon zingale<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2020 2:01 PM<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> To: <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com">friam@redfish.com</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> Nick,<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> Let's say I have a language designed to work with sticks, where for<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> instance, it makes sense to name certain relations *Triangle*. Additionally,<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> let's assume that the language is detailed enough to include less obvious<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> relations such as those which relate sticks to trees to soil and water.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> Would it be cheap to narrowly define *downward causation* as the<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> manipulation of the world in accordance with this language to produce new<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> sticks?<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> Consider as another example when one manipulates charge in bulk using analog<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> filters. Here, a circuit designer may not need to know about spin or<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> superposition or a lot of other details about the universe. In fact, the<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> designer may not know how to write a "mid-frequency ranged filter" if they<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> were only given a quantum mechanical view of the world. They may, however,<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> know how to build such a filter if they are given appropriately shaped<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> conductive surfaces and coils.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> My apologies in advance if this characterization (that of reducing *downward<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> causation* to manipulation of a domain-specific language) is horribly<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> flawed, but I spent this much time writing a response. So, there.<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> --<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> Sent from: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a> un/subscribe<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <a href="http://bit.ly/virtualfriam">bit.ly/virtualfriam</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> un/subscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> archives: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">> FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> <br></div><div style="font-family:Arial;">><br></div></body></html>